Convince me

by Liza 116 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Madame Quixote

  Liza - Why not present all of your questions to your local elders and get back to us with their thoughts on the matter?
• 

  AuldSoul

  Liza,

  I have no idea what would or would not convince you. But I can share what convinced me. Studying the Watchtower Society's publications convinced me. Not just the ones they direct you to for answers, but also the ones they wish had never been published. There are instances of convincing proof in both current doctrine and past doctrine. Mountains of them.

  To avoid overloading you, I will share three and let you decide whether you would like to ask for more:

  --1--
  According to the most current JW doctrine on the subject Jesus IS NOT the mediator for all mankind; rather he is the mediator for only the 144,000. See for yourself on 2005 Watchtower Library CD ROM: "Worldwide Security Under the 'Prince of Peace'" page 10 paragraph 15, 16.

  Jesus IS my mediator. No amount of religious dogma will separate me from Him. Common sense tells me that anyone who TRIES to separate me from Jesus is no relative of His. Therefore, I am convinced.

  --2--
  Matthew 28:18-20 is used by Jehovah's Witnesses for two purposes: They see it as a commandment from Christ to each of his individual disciples that they must preach and they see the fact that they each individually preach as proof that they are Christ's disciples. The logic works like this: Jesus told every one of his disciples to preach, every one of Jehovah's Witnesses preach, therefore we are Jesus' disciples.

  READ Matthew 28:18-20 to yourself carefully so you can answer one simple question. Do Jehovah's Witnesses also each individually baptize other people? Because ... if their understanding is correct that this is a mandate from Christ for every disciple of His then they MUST also baptize people in order to fulfill this commandment.

  Then consider this: Learning ABOUT someone doesn't create a personal relationship with that person. I could learn all there is to know about Abraham Lincoln and never have a personal relationship with him, for instance. Christian baptism creates the bond between Christ and the individual and between the Father and the individual and between the Holy Ghost and the individual. Peter wrote that baptism saves people just as the ark saved Noah and his family. (1 Peter 3:20-22)

  So, the most important part of the "mandate" in Matthew 28:18-20 is NOT carried out by every individual JW. In fact, this most important activity of the First Century Christian church which could be carried out immediately wherever there was a convenient body of water nearby, this sacrosanct rite of Christianity ... has to wait for a Convention or an Assembly among Jehovah's Witnesses.

  I do not think Matthew 28:18-20 is a mandate because it is predicated on Jesus having received all authority. Keeping the context in mind it appears (personal opinion) that prior to this he did not have the personal authority to grant them to do this work. Here he is sending them as his representatives to the world and is reassuring them that his authority will back them in this effort.

  But IF IT IS a mandate Jehovah's Witnesses flatly ignore the most important part of it, the part which opens a personal relationship with the Father and the Son. Therefore, I am convinced.

  --3--
  According to the most current JW doctrine the modern Faithful Slave (a.k.a. "the wise virgins" of parable; Matthew 25) were selected by Jesus in 1919 not because of their correct doctrines or their behavior being so much better than everyone else. They were selected because they alone were waiting for the presence of Jesus to begin in 1914 (in expectation of the bridegroom's arrival). However, Watchtower publications from the time demonstrate conclusively that (in 1919) they WERE NOT waiting for Christ to arrive in 1914. They were teaching that Christ's presence had begun in 1874, that the Great Tribulation had begun in 1878, and that Armageddon had begun in 1914. Thus the popular talk series by J.F. Rutherford from 1918-1922 "The World Has Ended—Millions Now Living Will Never Die" Look the talk title up on the CD ROM.

  The WT publication, written by J.F. Rutherford, by the name "Millions Now Living Will Never Die" related emphatically that the ancient worthies such as Daniel and Moses would be resurrected to earth in 1925. In this book, the date 1925 was said to be fixed even more firmly by Bible Chronology than 1914.

  The fruit false prophets bear is prophecies that don't come true. The Bible Students/Jehovah's Witnesses began as false prophets, a doomsday cult. False prophets do not become true prophets. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22; 1 John 4:1; Matthew 7:15-20) Therefore, I am convinced.

  As I said, only three. If you want more, just ask. There are dozens.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
• 

  Liza

  Woah, I didn't know you guys would respond so quickly! Thanks heh.
  
  I think to get to know Jehovah, I decided to take a "spiritual journey". I have always been taught it is best to look at both sides of things. In fact the very sheep metaphor used by JWs and "training our thinking" creeps me out all the time. This though isn't the end of that journey, it is the mere begining :3.
  
  So, I have read all your replies, and here's my request: Is there a website that pits the NWT Bible agaisnt a thoughougly translated Hebrew\Greek to plain english Bible? Even before I found this website I wanted to find a third party Bible, or perhaps many of them.
  
  Oh and I found this:
  http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2453&reply=10#msg10
• 

  AllAlongTheWatchtower

  "So, I have read all your replies, and here's my request: Is there a website that pits the NWT Bible agaisnt a thoughougly translated Hebrew\Greek to plain english Bible? Even before I found this website I wanted to find a third party Bible, or perhaps many of them." - Liza

  http://bible.cc/genesis/1-1.htm

  The above link is to a site that gives each bible verse, as translated by 10 different versions. Completely searchable, etc. (The link points to Genesis 1-1, you can go on from there as needed) You might find that useful, however, as to a way to pit the NWT against other versions on a comparisonal basis, I'm not sure there is such a thing. The reason being, that only the JWs are really interested in the NWT, nobody else really takes it seriously. Also, the JWs are rather secretive about their bible and other literature unless you're interested in joining them. ( http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/99001/1.ashx Something I've posted about before here on the site, when I attempted to find the NWT or other JW literature in a bookstore and noticed it was not available in that way). That's two red flags in rapid order.

  Regarding your original post Liza:

  -Why can't I love Jehovah my own way? I want to become a psycology researcher\fiction writer\illustrator when I grow odler and get out of college. But I think my work will promote love toward God and his wisdom.

  JWs don't believe in using any sort of mental science practioner, so being a psychiatrist, psychologist, counselor, therapist, etc is right out with them. There may be 'new light' which now allows them to seek the services of such, but it's still looked down upon, and those who do so are considered "weak in the faith", to actually BE one is even worse. Higher education is viewed as useless, since "this system of things" will soon end, there's no need to waste your time and money on it, both are better spent in the spreading of "Jehovah's word" and filling WTS coffers. Furthermore, completing college might make you all edumacated and uppity...downright haughty, vain, proud, and sinful even! Remember, the MEEK shall inherit 'paradise earth'.
• 

  jwfacts

  Welcome,

  I think the question is around the wrong way. Most people know that JWs are wrong, so the onus of proof should be to showing that JWs are right. It can not be done. There are many religions that are similar to JWs, that don't believe in the Trinity, don't go to war etc, so these things do not make it the only true religion. The only thing that makes JWs unique is that they say the Governing Body are Gods only channel. So what proof is there that in 1919 God selected the Watchtower Society? None, but there is actually a lot of proof that this is not the case.

  In 1919 they wers still embroiled in a lot of Masonic teachings http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/davinci.htm

  In 1919 they were clearly false prophets, having falsely said the end would come in 1914, and then 1925 http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/1914dates.htm & http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/1925.htm

  In regards to the cross, there is no evidence that Jesus died on a stake, but significant evidence that he died on a cross. As you showed in your example of the Watchtower symbol, just because a symbol is used by pagans does not make its usage wrong. http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/cross.htm

  The reason you believe JWs may be correct is because that has been your heritage. If you had been raised a Mormon you would probably be asking this same question on a Mormon site. as Mormons are equally convinced only they have truth. The important thing to understand is the damaging manipulation that happens in mind control relgions. http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/mindcontrol.htm

  For Bible research a great site is http://www.blueletterbible.org/. It contains many translations plus a concordance for each verse. Comparing translations is a great way to get an unbiased overall view of Scripture.
• 

  AK - Jeff

  Lisa -

  Here are a few links to discussions regarding the NWT. The problem with side by side comparisons with other translations, is that Jw's will just state that thiers is superior, but will not provide details as to why - so discussions and quotations from actual Greek/Hebrew scholars is best. There are lots of data on the matter, here is a couple;

  http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/nwt.htm

  http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/nwt.htm

  http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=555

  http://www.tetragrammaton.org/nwtandhvs.htm

  http://www.reachouttrust.org/articles/jw/jwnwt.htm

  There is always some level of scholarly bias in translation - but an intentional mis-translation of certain verses with intent of 'stacking the deck' doctrinally is another matter completely. One serious matter is the use of Johannes Greber's translation of the NT to support the NWT, since Greber's was known to all [including the Society at the time] to be a spiritist. For information on this;

  http://www.premier1.net/~raines/wtgreber.html

  Once one determines the 'accuracy' of the NWT, and whether other Bibles can support their doctrines, one is well on his/her way to making final determination as to the direction he should move in this regard.

  Jeff
• 

  AuldSoul

  AllAlongTheWatchtower: JWs don't believe in using any sort of mental science practioner, so being a psychiatrist, psychologist, counselor, therapist, etc is right out with them. There may be 'new light' which now allows them to seek the services of such, but it's still looked down upon, and those who do so are considered "weak in the faith", to actually BE one is even worse.

  I would caution that local views of such things vary greatly from one region to another. One key to how local views are shaped on the subject seems to be which Circuit or District Overseer is currently assigned to a region. Some of them have either personally used psychotherapists and psychiatrists or have seen close family members experience great success through sessions/medications. Others seem to view it all as a lot of psychobabble.

  Additionally, since she remains as yet unbaptized they will tell her it is a purely conscience matter. The congregation doesn't take over the consciences of others until the victim gives tacit permission by becoming baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. That isn't directly stated, but that is how their doctrine of congregational authority logically works out.

  As to your statement about how JWs view college it will be very difficult for her to verify that viewpoint with any JW who knows she is still just an interested person. They will hedge, dodge and ameliorate to a point at least bordering deceit on that score until she is baptized and the "encouragement" to focus on "spiritual things" sets in full force. Of course, after baptism is also when she becomes vulnerable to heavy scrutiny of her conduct and when she can finally be penalized by public or private reproof and/or disfellowshipping.

  Isn't it a grand thing to finally find a religion that claims to be Christian, claims to believe the same things worldwide, and which finds it necessary to use "bait-and-switch" tactics to sucker adherents into the fold?

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
• 

  AuldSoul

  Liza,

  If translational integrity matters to you, I do not think you could find a more direct example of intentionally massaging the text than a close examination of the 237 times "Jehovah" was used in the New Testament. They claim that their support for replacement of the Greek kurios (Lord) with the Anglicanized version of the tetragrammaton (Jehovah) comes from what they call J references. The oldest of these references are from Shem Tob in the late 1300s AD, a work translating some NT books into Hebrew (not into English). The most recent they use for support are from the late 1900s AD and these also are works translating NT books from Greek into Hebrew.

  In other words, they have taken the Greek word kurios and intentionally replaced this perfectly serviceable and easily translatable English word with a name that without question does not appear in any extant Greek manuscripts of the New Testament canon. If you can translate a word but you choose instead to replace it with something that supports religious dogma then you have ceased to be a translator and begun to propagandize.

  Additionally, they did not replace the word with the name in all the places where Shem Tob or any other translator replaced the word for the name. They replaced the word for the name wherever their doctrine indicated first and then scurried to find some semblance of translational support for their having done so.

  In short, they use the unmistakably incorrect "translation" by others of Greek into Hebrew as justification for their unmistakably incorrect "translation" of Greek into English.

  Putrid deceit at its finest and very intentional. I would like to know whether you can research this point out and come to any conclusion that differs from mine. I would like to see your line of reasoning in reaching a different conclusion.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul

  ADDED: All of my research sprang from studying out the source information given in the Reference Edition of the NWT for the list of J references. The J references are listed on pages 9 and 10. The topic of the logic used in replacement is found in Appendix 1D. Appendix 1D also breaks down each verse this was done to and whether it was kurios (alt. kyrios) or theos that was changed to Jehovah.

  As justification for their exegesis, consider their exculpatory pitch:

  "To avoid overstepping the bounds of a translator into the field of exegesis, we have been most cautious about rendering the divine name in the Christian Greek Scriptures, always carefully considering the Hebrew Scriptures for background. We have looked for agreement from the Hebrew versions to confirm our rendering. Thus, out of the 237 times that we have rendered the divine name in the body of our translation, there is only one instance where we have no agreement from the Hebrew versions. But in this one instance, namely, 1Co 7:17, the context and related texts strongly support rendering the divine name."

  In other words, they are willing to confuse the casual reader as to whether it was the Hebrew SCRIPTURES or the Hebrew VERSIONS of the Bible that served as basis for these errors in translation. They do not even pretend that what occurred in these 237 cases was actual translation. What they pretend is that it was not exegetical of them to copy someone else's clearly manipulative exegesis.
• 

  wanderlustguy

  I didn't know you guys would respond so quickly! Thanks heh.
  
  I think to get to know Jehovah, I decided to take a "spiritual journey". I have always been taught it is best to look at both sides of things. In fact the very sheep metaphor used by JWs and "training our thinking" creeps me out all the time. This though isn't the end of that journey, it is the mere begining :3.
  
  So, I have read all your replies, and here's my request: Is there a website that pits the NWT Bible agaisnt a thoughougly translated Hebrew\Greek to plain english Bible? Even before I found this website I wanted to find a third party Bible, or perhaps many of them.
  
  Oh and I found this:
  http://ewatchman-exposed.co.uk/research/read.php?t=2453&reply=10#msg10

  If all you use for reasearch is the Bible, then you are not truly searching for anything.
• 

  darth frosty

  Liza, I have one scripture for you. You can use as many translations of the bible as you want for comparason, but there are 3 total that must be looked at. The kicker is 2 of them ar WT bible's. Get you NWT and get the Kindon interlinier (published by the WTBS.) Now turn to eph.4:8. Now every bible translation renders this scripture that christ gave 'gift's to the men.' The NWT however renders this scripture 'Christ gave gifts[in] men'. As you read the NWT have you ever wondered what those elipses [ ] where for. Now take the kingdom interlinier (published by the WTBS) and read the original greek translation. Now ask yourself why do they say christ gave gifts [in] men when their very own interlinier show it should be ghifts to the men?

  The answer of course is this is their bread and butter scripture, to give ordinary men, extraordinary power to interprete the bible as they see fit.