"Mentally ill people sometimes think they are someone else." .................... Identification may change but is there something else, something beneath/beyond ideas of self? Can you look for yourself? Even in a "sane" state of mind our ideas of who we are change, which begs the question, "Who am I then, really? Who am "I" when there are no thoughts, no identification with any IDEA of who I am that is clung to?"
Count-Down 7: Self Awareness and the Soul
by Amazing 20 Replies latest jw friends
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greendawn
Interesting point that the dubs see humans as being just a mass of chemicals and all human energy derives from the reactions of (some of) these chemicals. There is no doubt some other form of energy totally beyond this chemical energy associated with human existence how it interacts with the physical body or whether it is something that lives on after death I have never been able to figure out. When science understands more about atomic structure and properties we will perhaps resolve these questions. From a Christian point of view there is the Divine energy of life that animates all things.
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kid-A
In one case, the person is born healthy and placed into a family that is well off and in a nice environment. In another case, one is born with serious physical or mental defects and may not be in a nice environment ... and there are countless combinatioins and possibilities that exist. This view resolves the sentient, self-aware question, but creates a whole new set of more disturbing questions and challenges to my faith.
And it should challenge your faith. How could an ethical human choose to worship a deity willing to play such cruel games of chance with the lives of sentient beings?
I would further add, what evidence do you have that sentience is reponsible for ones sense of self? Many other animals such as great apes and dolphins display rudimentary evidence of "self-awareness" yet are not classified as "sentient". Even cats and dogs display profoundly unique individual personalities in the absence of so-called "sentience". It is likely that sentience and human consciousness is merely an emergent property of a highly evolved cerebral cortex. One has no need to invoke supernatural explanations for neuronally explicable traits in humans.
Finally, if humans do possess some entity called a "soul" that is produced by supernatural forces, how is it possible that such a "soul" could be vulnerable to physical damage? One need only examine case studies of people that have suffered strokes, head trauma, etc etc to see how irreparably altered and "changed" a human personality can become following some "physical" trauma. Often times, the person is no longer even recognizable as the same "persona" to those who once knew him or her. How could the "supernatural" be subject to the limitations of "natural" biological factors?
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Satanus
I don't have a complete pic of this, however, in my view of it, the soul/spirit and evolution coexist. They both evolve. Souls/spirits reincarnate in different bodies to experience, learn, develop, evolve. Once they feel done w the carnal/earth experience, they carry on elsewhere. Spirits make those choices themselves without coersion from an omnipotent deity, although there may be advisers.
As already pointed out, some animals have demonstrated some self awareness. They have/are spirit as well. The spirit component within creatures could go right down towards the lower forms, possibly ending up in what they call animism. Spirits start out in the lowest forms, and graduate to higher as they develop through experience.
I suggest that less developed spirits may not be very aware. Awareness may be one of the results of spiritual evolution.
S
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choosing life
I agree that the Witnesses took away the Biblical concept of the human soul. Leaves you feeling all warm and fuzzy inside (not). They like to use Ezekiel 18:4 which basically is telling us that a person is responsible for their own sins, rather than a son suffering for the sins of his father. Most Christian denominations have great respect and belief in the individual uniqueness of each human soul.
Whether God places us into poor circumstances or even insufferable ones, I am not so sure. Maybe we are just allowed to come into being and then God cherishes us as individuals. Maybe the circumstances are are just random. Of course, you get into the allowing of innocent human suffering which I can not explain.
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Siddhashunyata
To add one thought to the comments of Narkissos and Poppers: The search for meaning is relentless because it is rooted in the 'self" , which is an accumulation of thoughts tagged "I". That search ends ( is resolved directly ) when the self is transcended as Poppers suggests. The peace that would come to the "self" by "knowing" the meaning of life, that peace is experienced in consort with a direct perception of objects undisturbed by the nagging "self". 'Meaning" is what a thing is and that can only be known by direct perception. Like drinking tea.
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Anti-Christ
I know that some primates have a certain level of self awarness, so do elephants, dolphins and orcas they may be others. The thing with dolphins and orcas is that they do not have a frontal lobe like humans and primates. The frontal lobe is were they speculate that the self awarness is generated ,so dolphins and orcas ( and elephants but I'm not certain) brains fonction very diferently then primates and humans. I think this is very interesting.
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Amazing
Kid-A,
And it should challenge your faith. How could an ethical human choose to worship a deity willing to play such cruel games of chance with the lives of sentient beings?
I don't know that God is playing games. I do not profess to know what is on God's mind, nor do I see the big picture. In my own case, I was among those born with less than perfect health and in a poor environment. Yet, I do not blame God for it, nor do I resent not having perfect circumstances. In some ways, I feel rather blessed.
I would further add, what evidence do you have that sentience is reponsible for ones sense of self?
I never stated that sentience is responsible for self awareness. I treated them somewhat separately, those they are similar expressions.
Many other animals such as great apes and dolphins display rudimentary evidence of "self-awareness" yet are not classified as "sentient". Even cats and dogs display profoundly unique individual personalities in the absence of so-called "sentience". It is likely that sentience and human consciousness is merely an emergent property of a highly evolved cerebral cortex. One has no need to invoke supernatural explanations for neuronally explicable traits in humans.
Yes, recent studies on a breed of monkeys show that they have a sense of worth in a form of trade. They got quite upset when some among them were given more pebbles for the same work. They used pebbles to buy banannas and other goodies. Some chimps and other primates have been observed in the wild using tools to make tools. This is a huge level of advancement. Recently, a breed of gorilla was taught how to play computer games, and develop skills to win at Pac-Man.
I am not the one invoking supernatural explanations. I am merely observing and asking the questions. I do not, however, find that evolution explains our sense of self or sentience. I believe that something else is going on.
Finally, if humans do possess some entity called a "soul" that is produced by supernatural forces, how is it possible that such a "soul" could be vulnerable to physical damage? ... Often times, the person is no longer even recognizable as the same "persona" to those who once knew him or her. How could the "supernatural" be subject to the limitations of "natural" biological factors?
The soul is not vulnerable to physical damage. This is traditional Christian teaching. When the body is injured, the soul is not injured. The person inside the body does feel the pain because while they are alive they are united with their bodies. When the body is killed, the soul does not die but leaves the body and returns to the spirit realm.
One need only examine case studies of people that have suffered strokes, head trauma, etc etc to see how irreparably altered and "changed" a human personality can become following some "physical" trauma.
No, the soul is merely not able to properly use damaged equipment. The body is like a vehicle. If my car is damaged, then I am not able to drive it until it is repaired. If it is destroyed, I can never drive it again, but I live on. Traditional Christian thought is that our bodies are just a vehicle. This is why cases like Terry Schivo became so publicized, because some Christians believe that even though Terry could not use her body, she was still in it, and we must wait on God to release her. Others believed that her soul was gone and killing her body was acceptable.
For those who believe like the JWs, they are their body, for their soul and the body are the same, and therefore get damaged and die. While I cannot fully explain traditional teaching, I cannot accept JW teaching either. I believe that we are more than the sum parts of our bones, tissue, organs and blood. We have something in our nature that goes way beyond the mere physical. We have a spiritual nature that can see far beyond the physical.
Jim Whitney
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proplog2
Nociception is the starting point. Even amoeba react to a sharp pin prick by moving away.
The purpose of pain & consciousness is to protect your boundary. We have our actual boundary and then because of our complex brains we are able to symbolize our boundary - which we call "self".
Our sense of self looms large when we experience pain and our sense of self melts with pleasure. Pain signals the need to change direction so we become conscious and alert. As pain subsides alertness loses its keen focus and fragments into scanning the envrionment for orientational purposes. You go from "I've got to get outa here" to "Now where am I?".
Like it or not we really are just fancy animals. It is a continuum. Sentience is not a surprise. It's exactly what you would expect from the evolution of an organ that processes information.
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Satanus
I do not, however, find that evolution explains our sense of self or sentience.
I see everything evolving; the universe, nature, humans, the spiritual, consciousness. Everything is growing and expanding, although the process is made up of cycles of birth, growth and death. Thus evolution will probably not go on forever. It may eventually reverse in a giant cycle of its own.
S