Christians could and did. Can JWs? Do they?

by ANewLeif 61 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  mouthy

  And a BIG AMEN to that Brother
• 

  Deputy Dog

  zack

  Good job!

  These verses sum it up well.

  Isa 43:10

  Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me thereis no savior.

  John 8:24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he,ye shall die in your sins.
• 

  FireNBandits

  AnEwLeif! Wow! I'm impressed! A brand new Pharisee has blossomed! I think if you try even harder you can find even more ways to shut the door to the Kingdom on many more people! What's your secret? Do you have Jesus in your hip pocket? Are you Omniscient? You must be. I think that's great. When I get my Pharisee Badge from Battle Creek Michigan I hope I can be even HALF as righteous and holy as you are. Judge Rutherford would be proud of you. Hell, I'M proud of you and I'm just an advanced piece of software being tested by the DOD.
  
  Keep us posted as you discover new ways to limit and enclose the Grace of God!
  
  Allah Akbar!
  Martin
• 

  Woodsman

  Stop making so much sense. People are going to realize the that the WTS is wrong.
• 

  RAF

  The WT doctrine is wrong and following it do not allow any who does, to call him/herself a christian (but eventually if sincere a mislead/lost sheep) it is his/her responsability to keep an eye on the fruits (good or bad and at some point - with "maturity" - people are supposed to get the point - it's not about following blindly ... that's "childish" = not taking responsability). their is a big difference in between listening (obeying) and discerning ...

  Thank youANL for the scriptures ... Most do show that spirituality have nothing to do with religion as it is understood today (if religion do not mean respect - but : church - which is not the same at all).

  The real probleme with the JW doctrine (but not only theirs) is that the GB is missleading their followers to focusing on being saved(with an iminent end for the carrot or the punishement) to the point that their followers can become unloving/selfish even with their own kids to be saved and that's unChristian (phylosophically and biblically talking) ...

  That's being their Ego/Satan slaves (phylosophically and biblically talking). You are with him or against him (and this doesn't really mean Christ as a person - since christ is not egoticentric - but what he means). This have not being said to lead us to be in the same religion/church since it doesn't lead to what it should lead if we do not have same (Christian) spirit towards others (so it is not a question of religion/church) ... That's why an atheist can be more Christian by heart, than someone who wants to be called Christian by name (it a question of spirit, not a question of laws or name)

  The only thing which can replace "maturity/wisdom" in Christian spirituality is "love but more precicely Charity" and that's from where it begun (so we don't really need to study years to get there). I guess Experience helps but it ask us to be honest with ourselves an not being a false doctrine and GB members apologistes (for instance). Call a dog a dog ... or we are misleading ourselve (then who is responsible if not ourselves when we are able to recognise a dog?).
• 

  ANewLeif

  Martin,

  Try to follow me carefully on this one. I will type slowly and use simple structures to build up to more complex ideas, out of kind regard for your candid admission on another thread that you are sometimes as thick as a brick.

  1 - Jehovah's Witnesses is not your mother, your brother, your aunt, or your uncle. These are examples of individual adherents and not at all the subject I am discussing.

  2 - Jehovah's Witnesses is a worldwide religion that makes certain claims about itself. Many of these claims can be proven untrue by the very source the religion looks to for support of its claims.

  3 - Jehovah's Witnesses either do or do not regard the Bible as the basis of all their doctrine. The Reasoning book says they do. In fact, that publication goes so far as to state that the fact that they do is, in part, what proves that they are the sole organization God is using today.

  4 - Jehovah's Witnesses (the religion) claim to be not only Christian, but they claim to be the only Christians on the face of the earth. Apparently religions cannot even be held accountable to their own published standards and found dogmatically wanting without some pissant crusader verbally castigating the one who discovers and publishes the lack.

  5 - Jesus trashed the Pharisees (as published in Matthew 23) even though every individual adherent did not merit the comments he made. The religion was flawed and destructive. You even referenced his comments in your post when you asked how many I would shut up the heavens to. He was referring to the religious dogma serving the purpose of shutting up the heavens, he wasn't saying that individual Pharisees had the ability to keep someone else from heaven.

  6 - Challenging the claims of religions and/or religionists is not Pharisaical. Jesus did it, frequently. The apostles did it. You do it, too. Snidely and sarcastically, but you do it.

  7 - Arrogantly presuming the state of mind or intentions of someone else based on cursory information about them is prejudice. Prejudice is not necessarily Pharisaical, there are many horrible traits among humans which are not strictly Pharisaical, but you are prejudiced. Rankly and disgustingly, prejudiced.

  8 - Your response to my post proves that your self assessment of being as thick as a brick was most likely accurate.

  Did I write that comprehensively enough for you to apprehend it all, or would you like bits of it explained further?

  ANL
• 

  ANewLeif

  Martin,

  One doesn't need to be a Christian to recognize when someone else's religion cannot accurately describe itself as Christian. One only needs to know the dogma of the religion professing Christianity and the supposed source for the dogma.

  Pr**k.

  ANL
• 

  Pubsinger

  I can see where both sides are coming from here.

  But I believe that the question is unhelpful.

  I don't believe in corporate salvation. (anymore)

  So to say JWs are Christians or not is to say that salvation is a corporate thing.

  I believe that you could be a JW and a Christian. It depends on your personal relationship with God. That doesn't mean that JW doctrine is correct.

  So I would have the same problem with saying Baptists are Christians. Some are.

  I also don't believe in corporate condemnation. As far as I can see salvation is all about individual relationship.
• 

  ANewLeif

  Pubsinger,

  Corporate salvation is impossible. I agree with you there. However, that isn't what JWs teach. They teach that the organization (Corporation) is the modern day ark that corresponds to Noah's.

  When examining something outside myself and my own viewpoints I find it helpful to try and see things from the perspective of the thing I am examining. Looking from inside the JW mindset, outward--adopting the world view that the religion tries to get the unsuspecting to adopt (often successfully)--is the only way I know to find out how to help them break free from the mental bonds that hold them tied to a religion as opposed to a relationship.

  Jesus advocated a relationship, not a religion. He advocated spirituality, not a religion. But it is impossible to get a JW to that point without first bringing them 'round to question what they know to be true.

  I understood that this forum was to discuss Jehovah's Witnesses, but it seems I am redirected to discussing other religions and religious belief systems at every turn. I don't mind doing that, I find it invigorating. But I don't want anyone to lose sight of what my primary intent is on this forum.

  I am primarily here to dicuss Jehovah's Witnesses, that is the stated purpose of the forum and I refuse to be bullied into silence simply because I think their religion is a load of horsesh** and that their adherents make horsesh** peddlers of themselves by strewing the manure around neighborhoods. Of course the price they ask is reasonable; for the low, low price of the rest of your life you can have an empty promise!

  ANL
• 

  zack

  At the well, Jesus told the Samaritan woman that God wants those who worhsip Him with spirit and with truth.

  So, one cannot adhere to the tenets of a religion which are by their very nature UNTRUE, and worship God with Truth. One cannot substitute

  one's will with the will of a collective or a representative of a collective, and be worshippong God with spirit. JW's, therefore, cannot and do not

  worhsip God with Spirit and Truth and therefore cannot be Christians.