Christians could and did. Can JWs? Do they? (page 4)

ANewLeif

"Well" said, zack. John 4 contains what I believe to be clinching proof that Jesus was not preaching a religion, but was preaching a relationship and a philosophy.

ANL

Pubsinger

Hi ANL

What I was trying to say is that I believe that an individual can be a Christian (and be saved) despite formally belonging to a group with flawed doctrine.

I'm fairly certain that there's "flawed doctrine" within most Christian churches but there are Christians there and some professed Christians who are not.

Zack.

Sorry but I can't agree with your post as a blanket statement. At what point does the "untruth" or error in church doctrine or tenets render it's associates non-Christians? Are there "grades" of Christians - below 65% becomes non-Christian?

I believe that it's totally posible to worship in spirit and truth and yet still be holding fast to some error.

JW's, therefore, cannot and do not

worhsip God with Spirit and Truth and therefore cannot be Christians.

I understand the logic in what you're saying it's just the way you say "JWs". It implies that everyone is the same and I don't believe that they all.

The society would love there to be uniformity among them but there isn't. I believe that Jesus judges them all individually and by his rules noe the WTs

ANewLeif

There seems to be some confusion as to exactly who is being discussed. The religion has intentionally tried to blur the line between individual "pew sitters" and the organization behind the name.

Pubsinger,

A professed Baptist who doesn't believe the Baptist creed isn't a Baptist. A JW who doesn't believe JW dogma isn't a JW. Even the JW dogma states that as a truth. Any individual in any church who doesn't subscribe to the basic tenets of the church may in fact be a Christian but, if so, they are not the denomination they pretend to be.

In other words, anyone who is actually a JW is definitely not a Christian. There may be many who go to JW meetings and appear to be dutiful JWs who are in fact Christians. Such people aren't reallyJWs. If someone adheres to doctrine that prevents them from being Christian they are not Christian.

If someone is a JW (not just professed), they are not a Christian. And vice-versa.

ANL

Pubsinger

Corporate salvation is impossible. I agree with you there. However, that isn't what JWs teach.

Re-reading your post this is my point.

I don't believe it's what "JWs teach" that matters. Obviously it's the WT that "teaches" and sets doctrine not individual JWs

However what the individual Jw believes is a different matter. And I believe plenty go straight to God and worship in spirit and truth.

I know I did.

I believe I was saved while still a JW. I was enlightened and left.

But I left because I was a Christian not to become one.

ANewLeif

I submit for you consideration that you were not a JW. You were a Christian. When you discovered that, you left. Otherwise you would still be a JW.

I know lots of people who aren't JWs. They just don't know it. When they find out they are not JWs they will leave.

ANL

Pubsinger

ANL

Just read your profile and gather that you're not an ex-JW ( I take it you are a Christian!)

I agree with your last post.

How much of the JW doctrine and interpretations though would you have to adhere to to be a real JW? I don't know anyone who does/did. Secretly nobody believed that the 7 trumpet blasts of Revelation were talks at 1930's conventions. Or that a beard made you unacceptable to God. But officially they believed.

I don't believe any JW believes that Jesus is NOT their mediator despite what the WT says. Secretly they believe that he is.

As for denomination, I believe that that is becoming more and more indistinct. It is becoming more and more common for Christians who move from one district to another to visit several churches of different denomination before deciding where to make there "home church" They are looking for Christian fellowship as opposed to a denomination they are comfortable with.

I find that less and less do people identify themselves as Baptists, Methodists, Anglicans etc but just as believers or Christians

Pubsinger

I don't believe any JW believes that Jesus is NOT their mediator despite what the WT says. Secretly they believe that he is.

Actually as 90%+ of JWs are unaware of this official teaching and hence don't know what they are supposed to believe; I submit that most of them actually are not JWs although are enslaved by it's rules as opposed to it's doctrine

ANewLeif

I am non-denominational, Pubsinger.

But the lack of denominational distinction among "Christian" churches is not evident among JWs, at all. For them to attend any other religion's services is considered an act of apostasy. If the offender is unrepentant they can be severely shunned for it.

You wrote, "Secretly nobody believed that the 7 trumpet blasts ... Secretly they believe that [Jesus] is [their mediator]."

Can someone be a secret Christian, Pubsinger? How does that work, exactly? That is a new one for me. I never even considered the possibility that such a person could exist. Do these "secret" Christians teach other people that Jesus is not their mediator while believing that he is? I'm stymied how that could possibly result in honesty or integrity without exposing their secret beliefs and being punished.

ANL

Terry

I wonder if we might broaden the discussion a bit?

For anything to exist it must be something.

Identity is the prime test for existence.

For Christians to exist they must be something which distinguishes them from non-Christians or else they do not and cannot exist.

There only remains for us to determine if there is a standard which enables identification.

The Topic begins with the premise that there is a standard and the presupposition is that the bible reveals the standard in an unambiguous clarification.

Christianity itself focuses on Christ with a view to who/what Christ is and means.

However, there exists within denominations identifying themselves with Christ/Jesus a wide variance of dissonant views.

So, Christianity cannot be the same thing and self-contradict at the same time.

I would submit for consideration the following observation:

Christianity is not about the standard specifically presented in the Bible.

Christianity is about how various groups selectively interpret a perceived standard extracted from certain Bible texts.

Let me make an analogy.

What is the difference between a circle and a triangle?

A circle consists of a curved line equi-distant from a center point. A triangle consists of three sides and three angles.

An interpretation is called for:

Can a circle and a triangle be the SAME figure simultaneously?

The answer is: YES! (see below)

What if you wanted to create a "belief system" out circles and triangles?

You'd have at least two (seemingly)contradictory religions.

Each of two groups would self-define narrowly and separate itself from the other group.

Each of the two religions would be opposed. But, a third religious view is possible which contains all of the definitions without exclusion.

The reality, however, would not be perceived by either group because they do not bother to take the yet wider view that a circle and a triangle can simultaneously be the same figure co-existing in a section of a cone.

Depending on how you turn a cone section you will either see a triangle or a circle or a transitional shape.

Merely selecting for either/or destroys the understanding of what a cone section is.

ANewLeif

Terry,

You asked, "I wonder if we might broaden the discussion a bit?"

No. But you don't seem to care.

The topic, "Christians could and did. Can JWs? Do they?"

Your interpretation of "a bit" is quite a lot beyond mine. Please demonstrate how your post relates to the topic or remove the parts that do not (in my opinion that would be everything but the question you asked at the beginning).

ANL

Christians could and did. Can JWs? Do they?

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