Gun control logic

by Gregor 174 Replies latest social current

  • dolphman
    dolphman

    Haven't been on this board in a while, but this VT massacare has got me pretty upset.

    I've debated countless times with gun lovers over gun control. There logic is so deeply flawed. Let me point out what I think are a few big obvious realities they miss:

    1. less guns = less gun deaths. There's really no way around this fact. Every country with strict gun laws has less people dying of guns. It's real simple. I'm not sure what the big disconnect is on this. England, Italy, Sweden, Canada, they all have minimal gun deaths. They have plenty of "criminals" who have supposed "access to the black market"...yet for some reason, they don't have the gun rampages we do. Interesting, no?

    Sure, people get murdered. You can't prevent that. But for god's sakes, killing somebody with an axe and killing a bunch of people with an AR-15 are two different things entirely. An axe has a purpose outside of being purely engineered to kill as many people as possible. I"m not talking about preventing the unpreventable. I'm saying prevent the preventable.

    2. "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" - True, but guns make killing lots of people very easily. And let's face it, guns have one purpose, to kill. You can't cut your steak with them, you can't hammer your nails in with them, you can't scratch your ass with them, etc. At least you have a fighting chance with a hammer or a knife. I'd rather face a knife than a gun any day (I've faced both in my life, mind you, I"m not just making this shit up).

    3. "Oh, if only the students were armed, or the teachers were armed, they could've prevented it from happening." That's retarded. That's all we need, shoot outs at the kegger and pep rallys whenever some wanna be gangsta wants to impress a chick. Forget Cho, there'd be plenty of dead VT students just from campus shootouts.

    It also reminds me of the cold war logic, MAD, mutually assured destruction. Like pointing a bunch of nukes at each other made the world a safe place. People will say "oh but see how nuclear war never happened!". Well, imagine if it did. Hell, it almost. The solution isn't arming kids, it's asking ourselves this: How the hell does a person with a green card and a history of mental illness get 2 guns and over 1000 rounds of ammunition? And we still don't think there is a problem?

  • Warlock
    Warlock

    I know a guy who is "51-50". In this state of California, he cannot buy a gun, period. How do I know? He tried, but he couldn't. You cannot let people that are wacko buy guns.

    Warlock

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    sammielee24:

    Although used in far fewer deaths* – they are used to prevent about 75 crimes for each death.

    Hmm, What happens if we combine that with Brother Apostate's numbers?

    There are 6.24 gun related homicides per 100,000 people. Each of these deaths are apparently a side-effect of a situation that prevents 468 crimes per 100,000 people. That's quite a big number, and in fact it's so close to the actual violent crime rate for 2005 (469.2/100,000) that I'm wondering if someone didn't somehow work it out based on that. See http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

    So it's lucky you have guns or your violent crime rate - already one of the highest in the world - would be double what it is today. (Unless of course the guns are being used to prevent non-violent crime, but that seems a little heavy-handed.)

  • seawolf
    seawolf
    We simply do not get events like that in Europe. The last one was Dunblaine in Scotland if i remember rightly.

    Erfurt, Germany, April 2002, a school was shot up with 2 students, 13 teachers, a school secretary and a police officer being shot to death.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1952869.stm

  • Gill
    Gill

    I apologise! I apologise!

    Guns are Healthy!

    Guns are Good!

    Guns are Healthy!

    Guns are Good!

    Guns are Healthy!

    Guns are Good!!.............

    Guns MUST NOT BE A CONTROLLED SUBSTANCE AS THEY ARE HARMLESS!!!!!!

    Again I apologise for having thought otherwise ever!

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate

    FunkyDerek,

    Thank you for pointing out my math error. You are correct, on the math, that is.

    I found the problem in the macro on my spreadsheet, and corrected it.

    I shall do math penance now

    Rounded to the nearest whole integer:

    Japan: US has 68 times more Households with firearms, US has 192 times Gun Death Rate per capita

    Singapore: US has 4100 times more Households with firearms, US has 192 times Gun Death Rate per capita

    England/Wales: US has 10 times more Households with firearms, US has 34 times Gun Death Rate per capita

    Scotland: US has 10 times more Households with firearms, US has 27 times Gun Death Rate per capita

    Netherlands: US has 22 times more Households with firearms, US has 25 times Gun Death Rate per capita

    Spain: US has 3 times more Households with firearms, US has 18 times Gun Death Rate per capita

    Germany: US has 5 times more Households with firearms, US has 18 times Gun Death Rate per capita

    Sweden: US has 2 times more Households with firearms, US has 6 times Gun Death Rate per capita

    Denmark: US has 5 times more Households with firearms, US has 5 times Gun Death Rate per capita

    New Zealand: US has 2 times more Households with firearms, US has 5 times Gun Death Rate per capita

    Australia: US has 3 times more Households with firearms, US has 75 times Gun Death Rate per capita

    Belgium: US has 2 times more Households with firearms, US has 18 times Gun Death Rate per capita

    Canada: US has 2 times more Households with firearms, US has 3 times Gun Death Rate per capita

    Norway: US has slightly less Households with firearms, US has 3 times Gun Death Rate per capita

    Austria: US has 2 times more Households with firearms, US has 3 times Gun Death Rate per capita

    Northern Ireland: US has 5 times more Households with firearms, US has 3 times Gun Death Rate per capita

    France: US has 2 times more Households with firearms, US has 2 times Gun Death Rate per capita

    Switzerland: US has 2 times more Households with firearms, US has 2 times Gun Death Rate per capita

    Finland: US has slightly more Households with firearms, US has 2 times Gun Death Rate per capita

    What correlation is there between the % of Households with firearms, and the Gun Death Rate per capita? None. There is no linear, or even nearly linear, correlation.

    What the above does show, is that the US has a higher Gun Death Rate per capita vs % of Households with firearms, than the other 19 countries in the graph. It also shows what I have been stating all along, that this is a cultural problem.

    Incidentally, the graph posted, and questioned in this thread, is a pro-gun-control, not a pro-gun lobby, chart. I am reasonably certain that the N/As on this chart (and the 42 missing countries) gives quite a different picture, as I’ve already posted in another thread.

    The other countries statistics all show that the amount of gun deaths in the USA is actually far higher than one would expect given the percentage of guns.

    Incorrect. Using the US as the "standard"- given the percentage of guns,

    Singapore and Northern Ireland exceed the "expected" case::

    Singapore- 21 times the "expected" rate (4100/192) as compared with US

    Northern Ireland- 1.6 times the "expected" rate (5/3) as compared with US

    Reasonably close:

    Canada- 2/3 times the "expected" rate (2/3) as compared with US

    Austria- 2/3 times the "expected" rate (2/3) as compared with US

    Japan- 1/2 the "expected" rate (1/2) as compared with US

    All the statistics seem to show that not only do Americans have more guns than everybody else, they are also more inclined to use them to kill.

    Finland has the US beat on a percentage of households with guns basis.

    And your solution is to give them more guns.

    Never my solution. Americans are already well armed, and can, provided they obey the laws, go almost anywhere with a concealed weapon, except educational facilities. My suggestion, after this incident, is to allow qualified Teachers, Administrators, and, yes, qualified students to take their concealed weapon to the classroom.

    Actually, now that you can see there is in fact a correlation between the availability of guns and gun deaths, have you changed your position?

    That is a different proposition entirely- "availability of guns" and "% of Households with firearms, vs Gun Death Rate per capita" are apples and oranges, mate.

    BA- Not changed my position

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    BA, how does the math look in the list you posted above if you correlate "household" with "per capita"?

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate

    Six,

    The chart is from:

    http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/international.html

    You'll find that it reports on 20+ countries, with full stats on 20 of them. Comparing the percentage of households that posssess guns with the rate of gun deaths per 100,000 population, is one of the studies it makes possible.

    Cheers,

    BA

    Edited to add:

    Compare % gun owning households in one country vs another,

    Compare gun deaths per 100,000 in one country vs another.

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate

    Incidentally, heres an interesting graph, Homicide vs Suicide rates by region:

    The image “http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/whodeath.jpg” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors.

    Homicide & Suicide Rate by World Health Organization (WHO) Region , year 2000

    Notice that the Region of the Americas has an inversly proportional Homicide vs Suicide rate compared to the European Region?

    Yet, many of the countries in that region, have strict gun-control laws.

    Overall, the combined suicide + homicide death rate is roughly the same per 100,000 people, it's just a cultural difference in how they choose to carry out their madness.

    BA- People kill people. Take guns away, they'll still find a way.

    PS- a map illustrating the differences in suicide rates around the world:

    http://www.who.int/mental_health/media/en/suicide.jpg

  • beksbks
    beksbks

    I don't have time to read through all the posts on this thread right now, but I have a question, and I apologize if it's been addressed above. VA apparently does not have a waiting period. The dude at the store where at least one gun was purchased said he looked at 3 forms of ID making sure that whatzhisface was a VA resident, and he called the police for some quick check they do. After everything we now know about this guy, doesn't it seem probable that if they had a waiting period, and a more thorough background check, he never would have been able to make his deadly purchase? The police were called on this guy at least 3 times over the last 2 years. He spent time in a mental ward after one of them. A couselor and police suggested at that time that he be involuntarily committed!!!!!!!!

    If any one of those other students had had a gun, yea more lives may have been saved in this incident. But what about all the incidents that would be happening because every loose canon dumb fuck out there would have a gun in his pocket?

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