"The Red Corvette" problem -- a disconnect in view points

by AlmostAtheist 27 Replies latest jw friends

moshe

I wonder what will happen, if scientists do unravel the mystery of what makes the chemical engine , we call life, take off and start working. When you look back in history and see how much has been solved, it does not seem insurmountable that scientists will be able to explain how life started in the first place.
LtCmd.Lore
I don't know of any simpler and more concise way to describe abiogenesis than this:
Where Did the First Living Cell Come From? In order for the principles of mutation and natural selection in the theory of evolution to work, there have to be living things for them to work on. Life must exist before it can to start diversifying. Life had to come from somewhere, and the theory of evolution proposes that it arose spontaneously out of the inert chemicals of planet Earth perhaps 4 billion years ago.
Could life arise spontaneously? If you read How Cells Work, you can see that even a primitive cell like an E. coli bacteria -- one of the simplest life forms in existence today -- is amazingly complex. Following the E. coli model, a cell would have to contain at an absolute minimum:
A cell wall of some sort to contain the cell
A genetic blueprint for the cell (in the form of DNA)
An enzyme capable of copying information out of the genetic blueprint to manufacture new proteins and enzymes
An enzyme capable of manufacturing new enzymes, along with all of the building blocks for those enzymes
An enzyme that can build cell walls
An enzyme able to copy the genetic material in preparation for cell splitting (reproduction)
An enzyme or enzymes able to take care of all of the other operations of splitting one cell into two to implement reproduction (For example, something has to get the second copy of the genetic material separated from the first, and then the cell wall has to split and seal over in the two new cells.)
Enzymes able to manufacture energy molecules to power all of the previously mentioned enzymes
Obviously, the E. coli cell itself is the product of billions of years of evolution, so it is complex and intricate -- much more complex than the first living cells. Even so, the first living cells had to possess:
A cell wall
The ability to maintain and expand the cell wall (grow)
The ability to process "food" (other molecules floating outside the cell) to create energy
The ability to split itself to reproduce
Otherwise, it is not really a cell and it is not really alive. To try to imagine a primordial cell with these capabilities spontaneously creating itself, it is helpful to consider some simplifying assumptions. For example:
Perhaps the original energy molecule was very different from the mechanism found in living cells today, and the energy molecules happened to be abundant and free-floating in the environment. Therefore, the original cell would not have had to manufacture them.
Perhaps the chemical composition of the Earth was conducive to the spontaneous production of protein chains, so the oceans were filled with unimaginable numbers of random chains and enzymes.
Perhaps the first cell walls were naturally forming lipid spheres, and these spheres randomly entrapped different combinations of chemicals.
Perhaps the first genetic blueprint was something other than DNA.
These examples do simplify the requirements for the "original cell," but it is still a long way to spontaneous generation of life. Perhaps the first living cells were completely different from what we see today, and no one has yet imagined what they might have been like. Speaking in general terms, life can only have come from one of two possible places:
Spontaneous creation - Random chemical processes created the first living cell.
Supernatural creation - God or some other supernatural power created the first living cell.
And it doesn't really matter if aliens or meteorites brought the first living cell to earth, because the aliens would have come into existence through either spontaneous creation or supernatural creation at some point -- something had to create the first alien cells.
Most likely, it will be many years before research can completely answer any of the three questions mentioned here. Given that DNA was not discovered until the 1950s, the research on this complicated molecule is still in its infancy, and we have much to learn.
cognizant dissident

In the case of the Corvette, it DID evolve. It evolved from the first tool created by man, probably a digging stick.
Which eventually led to metallurgy, etc. The red Corvette is a culmination of thousands of years of evolution.
But it was an evolution directed by intelligence.
Actually, the Corvette DID NOT evolve and neither did any other tool designed by man. It was the knowledge and intelligence in tool making abilities of homo-sapiens that evolved over thousands of years until they were able to design and produce sophisticated tools such as cars.
As has been pointed out earlier, corvettes and all man made tools are inorganic, insensient and non self-replicating. The real "problem of the Red Corvette" is that the analogy to organic, sensient, self-replicating life forms is so weak as to be useless to the discussion of evolution or abiogenesis.
Cog
Vinny

Here we go again...

And now Vinny, who just said a fond farewell on that other LONG-thread that he spent a TON of time on because as already mentioned on that other thread, I have many other more important issues to contend with, (such as a wife getting hammered by JW elders this week, our own oldest kid shunning her, depression-anger etc taking over, our YOUNGEST KID trying to figure out how to GET OUT and not lose EVERYTHING SHE EVER KNEW, my own business that has many projects waiting for me RIGHT NOW, the third, middle kid newly married at 20, to a 17 year old, and who is OUT of the JW's, but living at home with new wife and too many other things not even listed here). After posting thorough and often lengthy replies on the original thread, where it was 18 ATHEISTS TO ONE THEIST (a thread where atheists were BURIED... just read it folks, see for yourself), I now have to come back over here and straighten this thread of mumbo-jumbo out again.

.

I do assume Almost Atheist had good intentions, from reading his P.M. to me. But this is just one big MESS now that I have showed up and read what was written.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/132307/1.ashx

Let's imagine that you are completely alone in the middle of North Dakota somewhere, surrounded by nothing but mountainous wilderness, no people, no buildings, just you alone and the wilderness for hundreds of miles. And right there in the middle of it all you suddenly walk up to a brand new looking Red Chevrolet Corvette, unlocked, with the keys in the ignition, a full tank of gas and one road taking you out. Now, it would in my opinion be nothing short of preposterous, actually INSANE to even entertain the mere possibility if someone were to try telling you that THAT brand new looking Red Corvette just happened to get there, on its own, without any intelligent designer behind it whatsoever. That somehow, some way it just happened to be some product of "blind chance" without any intellectual forces behind that ready-to-drive automobile.

Unbelievable there is also a hood, with an outside and inside hood latch that allows you to look at the motor that evolved on its own. All the while fitting perfectly and symmetrically into perfect place. In another incredible act of CHANCE, there is a gas pedal too that when pressed carefully lets that amazingly complex machine (that just happened by series chances) to move forward. Of course once you did get in it and realized this amazing machine can actually take you wherever you wish to go, you have another serious problem; whoops, how do you STOP IT? Big problem. Well lookey here!... there is a BRAKE PEDAL right next to the gas pedal that just so happens to connect to four disc brakes that also are perfectly hitched to brake rotors, and calipers that are coincidentally just perfectly hooked up with those perfectly rounded and symmetrical tires that we already discovered earlier. And through some act of evolutionary coincidence, this braking system has a MASTER CYLINDER that just also happens to have the perfectly positioned brake lines, filled with just the correct kind and correct amount of brake fluid. Of course if it were instead power steering fluid, or transmission fluid or gasoline in them there brake lines it would not work one bit, and may even catch on fire, but since it has the exact consistency needed for brake fluid, it works like a charm. How bout that!

There are several clear windows to look out from as well. Sure need those; glad they just happened to FALL INTO PLACE where they did too. Pretty amazing how the elements and other external forces just happened to get that red shiny paint job only where it is and not on the windows, would have a problem there for sure. And guess what else, inside it has heat and ac and rear defrost and windshield wiper blades, a fuel gauge, temp gauge, tachometer with speedometer, with perfectly located knobs that even say heat and ac and wiper speeds. How did that get here on it's own? Amazing aint it? And for some strange reason it needs to have some little piece of metal to turn the thing on, I believe they call it a KEY. Low and behold THERE IS A KEY, with the exact correct notches already in the perfectly located steering wheel. How bout all that, what an amazing coincidence!

Obviously I could continue on with this for pages and pages folks. I am sure you can see the point. (Try as you may to AVOID the point), It would be silly, foolish, absurd, outrageous, strange, weird and just impossibly IGNORANT to believe ALL of these things just happened by blind chance, without any intelligence at all, creating one single, ready-to drive Red Chevrolet Corvette. If nobody on this board could be convinced of such a foolish idea with one automobile in the middle of nowhere, how then could people POSSIBLY believe that a FAR, FAR MORE complex universe and earth, filled with far more complicated life (than that single corvette) could possibly just happen by itself, through some evolutionary process, with absolutely no help from an intelligent source anywhere?

The reality is, I would have a better chance of selling somebody on that car that just formed by itself, through a Big Bang/abiogenesis (the supposed origination of life from lifeless matter) and then evolved with all the perfect pieces fitting together, than on the UNIVERSE and EARTH itself just happening to form themselves as well as all life forms upon the earth. A human being is far, far more complex that that car. With our immune systems, lymphatic systems, digestive systems, cardio systems with heart chambers and blood vessels, nervous systems, joints, muscles, tendons, brains with billions or neurons, eyes that see, ears that hear, nose that smells, fingers that feel, skin that sweats, mouth that tastes, chews and swallows. Feet, legs, knees that move and bend. Reproductive systems that can create new life etc etc on and on. The complexity of one human being puts that new Corvette to shame. Millions of time more complex. You get a scratch on that new car and you will visiting the body shop. Scratch or hurt yourself, and the body has the ability to actually heal itself. And you really hope to convince me it happened all by CHANCE, with no designer, no intelligence behind it all? Some primordial evolutionary soup like process, which resulted from a big ole BANG? We haven't even started discussing the complexity and incredible order of our UNIVERSE yet. Or the earth , how outstandingly complex yet perfectly harmonized it is. Photosynthesis, clouds and rain, the perfect tilt and rotational speed of the earth, perfect location of the sun, the moon, our orbit speed. The atmosphere, ozone layer, perfect amount of oxygen in the air. Gravity, food cycles, fire; all happened by blind chance? No intelligence required? Sorry atheists, but you are DEAD IN WATER here.

Lets talk about science for just a moment. The science where many get there beliefs that there is NO GOD, no maker because they cannot prove he exists. If science is so smart and such a trustworthy source, why cannot science then create life from non living matter? It has not been done. ANYWHERE, EVER. Not only can it not do such a thing as make life from non-living matter, even if all the parts are already there, in human form, animal form or any form, science cannot even PUT LIFE BACK to the BODY that just lost it prematurely through accidents, disease or any other disaster, or death through natural aging? With all the parts ALREADY TOGETHER, in front of these scientists, they are still helpless and cannot make LIFE exist. Yet they insist that ALL life as we see it today, just happened by some series of chances, without ANY help from any intelligent source. How reasonable is this? Let me answer that for you, IT'S NOT REASONABLE AT ALL.

This is why I believe in an Intelligent DESIGNER, a Creator rather than some abiogenesis/evolutionary/Big BANG series of processes resulting in all that we have today. It makes perfect sense. It is reasonable, it is logical and rational. To believe everything we see just happened BY ITSELF is none of those things in my sincere and honest opinion. Science cannot even feed the poor nor cure the worlds problems either. It has not even cured AIDS, cancer, diabetes, heart disease, alzheimer's, fixed global warming, the ozone layer and tens of thousands of other issues. And people wish to put their FULL TRUST in science when it comes to believing in a God or not? Sorry, I am not convinced and do not buy any of what they are selling. It is actually laughable to believe all things originated from nothing, all on their very own, without any intelligence behind it

There is just no way that it is even remotely, plausibly even MINUTELY possible that ALL of those marvelous features coming together at one time is due to a series of random, evolutionary, unguided CHANCES. When I look at an incredible startlit sky, in my mind there is not a chance that these all happened to be formed by a similar series of just aimless, arbitrary, haphazard, hit-or-miss events; a rolling of the dice if you will. They are extremely organized, finely tuned and intricate. They have clearly been PUT there and brought into motion by SOMEBODY.

The many systems that allow LIFE ON EARTH to exist likewise are organized, they are purposeful, intricate and again are finely tuned with other systems. AGAIN, by some merely accidental, casual, fortuitous, stroke of luck? That simply is not reasonable or logical to myself nor most other people. I have examined both sides of the evidence. For me there is just NO WAY these things happened without the guiding hand of intellect. For you and some others they may have come together by mere chance or in fact did come together by mere chance. I disagree. I have read the textbooks, have seen the arguments from scientists like Richard Dawkins. I consider such attempts to use abiogenesis/evolution as the explanation to explain how life arose to be far, far-fetched, and one giant stretch after another. Nothing has ever been duplicated. It bypasses the "Every beginning has a Cause" universal principle. It seeks to eliminate God altogether and then build around that premise in what many consider to be embarassing, feeble attempts of explanation. It fails miserably in my opinion and the opinion of billions of others as well.

This is why all atheists that you see today, anywhere, have a little red corvette stuck on their forehead. You cannot ignore it. It is always there. You have completely failed in dealing with this. It applies. It fits. IT WORKS. If you believe in atheism, then you believe that red vette COULD happen all on its own. It is just too funny to watch some of you little atheists try to explain to me how the vette thing CAN'T HAPPEN. Well, I KNOW IT CAN'T HAPPEN. Hello out there. But this is exactly what atheists BELIEVE happened to the far more precise and complex features surrounding us today. It's like some kind of TWO-STEP you atheists like to do. It can't happen with the vette, it can't happen with the vette... but it DID happen with sun, moon, stars, earth, animals, people etc.

You see folks, a perfectly spinning, tilted and orbiting earth did not EVOLVE, like you claim all OTHER LIFE on earth did. Neither did the atmosphere including ozone layer on earth, the water cycles, nor did the moon, sun and stars EVOLVE as you state in your explanations above. Nor did many BILLIONS of other things similar. Your argument, like I said, is LOSE LOSE for atheists. Again, this is why all atheists that you see today, anywhere, have a little red corvette stuck on their forehead. You cannot ignore it. It is always there.

In the simplest of terms then:

If through some cosmic "BIG BANG", ALL of the billions of stars in our own organized, orderly Milky Way Galaxy, as well as the BILLIONS of other organized and orderly Galaxies with their billions of stars came into existence. And if inside our very own organized and orderly galaxy, in what is known as our own orderly SOLAR SYSTEM, we have at just the right distance from our perfectly sized SUN, a perfectly located and sized planet EARTH, that also rotates at the perfect speed of 24 hours (needed to sustain life) as well as orbits around the sun at the perfect speed of 66,600 mph to keep it in that precise orbiting pattern and not sucked into the gravitational pull of the sun itself. And if this perfectly located, spinning and orbiting EARTH also has perfectly, purposeful and finely balanced SYSTEMS upon it (NEEDED TO SUSTAIN LIFE) such as different atmospheric layers, with protective ozone layer, with just the correct amount of gases needed to sustain life. (.Oxygen, Nitrogen, CO2, argon, water vapor and other smaller trace gasses). And if this same, orbiting, spinning, perfectly located EARTH with perfect atnosphere for life, located perfectly inside the universe with many billions of organized galaxies ALSO has a variety of unique, perfectly balanced SYSTEMS AND FEATURES such as water cycles, weather systems, eco systems, food chain systems, microbial systems, photosynthesis, tides due to a perfectly located and spinning and sized moon at the precisely needed location and too many others to list here.

And if UPON this perfectly located, spinning EARTH, with it's many perfectly balanced features and systems (found in the middle of an organized orderly universe), there also happens to be a variety of LIVING THINGS on this earth, with ITS OWN amazingly complex varieties of different systems such as digestive, circulatory, reproductive, elimination, immune, neurological etc etc, that just happened to originate from NOTHING AT ALL, through some BIG BANG, into an organized gargantuan UNIVERSE, with a perfectly located, spinning, orbiting EARTH located within that universe, that just so happened to come WITH the many FEATURES needed to support life, along with all these many varieties OF LIFE FORMS that supposedly arose from lifeless matter, primordial soup, to polymers, into complex living things including human BRAINS and beyond; then FOLKS if all this happened, ***ALL ON ITS VERY OWN***, without any INTELLECTUAL SOURCE anywhere, then THAT RED CORVETTE showing up in the wilderness with gas, keys and everything in place is a PIECE OF CAKE. That Red Vette, all on it's own, is easy as counting 1,2,3 when compared to all THESE OTHER things arising from and existing because of a series of what can only be described as FAT-CHANCES, ALL ON THEIR VERY OWN.

NOW DEAL WITH IT ATHEISTS!

This is why you athesists are STUCK with red corvette on your foreheads for life. It applies, it fits, it works. For those of you that want to try wiggling off the hook because red vette aint living, breathing, self-replicating life form, you are then BURIED by the fact that neither is the earth, moon, sun, and stars or universe living, breathing, self-replicating life forms. Neither is atmosphere, water cycles, photosynthesis, weather systems etc living breathing self-replicating life forms. But I already addressed that in the other thread. I am only repeating myself here AGAIN. This is why Almost Atheist failed in presenting the argument correctly. Is why atheists arguments above have no legs at all.

Is also why so few humans ever buy into it.

I am swamped, but like other thread, if I have to, I will have to show up again when I can. Atheism will always lose. Try agnostic approach then. Throw out the bible then. Fine with me. But you cannot get around SOME Intellectual force behind the amazing things we see and know about today. Telling us that the universe, the earth and all life upon the earth originated from nothing at all, to Big Bang, to Primordial soup, to polymers, to living breathing reproductive things does not cut it.

ADDITIONALLY, I thoroughly explained in that other thread why God Himself needs no Designer. There is no special pleading either. I will re-post it here too, if I have to. This is why it would have been better to just keep it all in one place to begin with. I do not want to be all over this website. One was enough.

I will be back as soon as possible. But it will not be good news for atheists when I do. You are just on the wrong side of the issue here. Sorry.
Vinny

LTCMD.LORE says:..." These examples do simplify the requirements for the "original cell," but it is still a long way to spontaneous generation of life. Perhaps the first living cells were completely different from what we see today, and no one has yet imagined what they might have been like. Speaking in general terms, life can only have come from one of two possible places:

AAAahahhahahahahahahahaha. My side hurts whenever I have to read your stuff Lore. Seriously. You really posted this?

****** Here we go again. Our little 17 year old types without thinking. With quotes like this, who NEEDS VINNY? Thank you Lore. I can retire now. Lore is taking over for me. : )
Caedes

Spontaneous creation - Random chemical processes created the first living cell.
Supernatural creation - God or some other supernatural power created the first living cell.
I agree Lore, you have the entire universe as it is, as an entirely natural phenomenon or you have that same universe and you tack on some supernatural intelligence that created it all. So fundamentally you either believe in an entirely natural universe or a supernatural one. Ockham's razor should makes the choice a simple one for me.
On the subject of the "problem" of the red corvette, I think the problem is one of reading comprehension, The poster in question has consistantly failed to understand the very clear message given to him in probably every reply given. I.e that yes, abiogenesis is an area that is still not fully explained by science (there are some good hypotheses out there but nothing concrete...yet) but that no scientific theory of abiogenesis will ever suggest that red corvettes spring up out of nothing (and that hence his analogy is invalid). He also fails to grasp the concept that the big bang theory is a proven theory and rather strangely he doesn't understand that it has nothing to do with abiogenesis which has nothing to do with evolutionary theory either. His logical fallacies have been pointed out time and time again, but he just bangs on with the same old tired, circular arguments like some sort of battery bunny.
Planetary formation is a very well understood phenomenon but somehow this poster thinks that atheists believe they evolve.
You see folks, a perfectly spinning, tilted and orbiting earth did not EVOLVE, like you claim all OTHER LIFE on earth did. Neither did the atmosphere including ozone layer on earth, the water cycles, nor did the moon, sun and stars EVOLVE as you state in your explanations above
I would be very interested to see which 'textbook' this was in but I doubt we will see a reference
I have read the textbooks, have seen the arguments from scientists like Richard Dawkins
Seen? yes maybe, comprehended? Obviously not, or he might have some idea about what atheists actually believe.
I could go on but I'm worried this post may be getting a bit too long
AlmostAtheist

Thanks for dropping by Vinny. And you're right, I had nothing but good intentions. I had hoped to "reach across the aisle" as it were and try to let each of us see from the other's viewpoint. I had even hoped to get something similar back from you. Sadly, I can't see anywhere in your lengthy post where you even tried. In fact, you didn't even follow the "let's be respectful of one another" rule established in the very first post to the topic.
I'm not carrying this any further.
Dave
Anti-Christ

Holy cow vinny!!!!!!!! You don't give up do you? Ok, I see that you have a very heliocentric belief. You see the corvette was created "perfectly" to accomplish something precise. So If I understand, you believe the universe was created "perfect" just for us?

"The Red Corvette" problem -- a disconnect in view points

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