How can scipture be used to dispute a JW when they alone understand it?

by The Dragon 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  The Dragon

  I hear and see this alot.....debates consisting of two sides picking and hurling scriptures at one another to back up their assertions and guesses...it usually goes nowhere but wastes time and energy that could be more productivily used.

  Problem being is...in the case of the dubs...they believe that they and their leaders/teachers alone are being granted divine understanding...and you are trying to convince them they do not understand the book they wrote, and what they were trying to say in it basically.

  They are allowed to pick and choose what is to be taken literal and figurelative without opposition...and should you point this out..you are in effect calling their leaders and trusted teachers liars.

  You would have better luck convincing Hitler what exactly he meant and really wanted from his book Mien Krap...could you convince him he really didn't have a clue and you knew it better than him?

  Difference being...you have a book niether side wrote or truly understands...arguing who understands it better and should be listened to.

  What if you could get this point across to them before the scriptures fly? Would they still be able to twist scripture to support their guesses effectivily...or would they be persuaded to admit their ignorance instead?

  Has anyone tried this before with any results good or bad?
• 

  Black Sheep

  Don't argue scripture with them.

  Learn 587/607 off by heart.

  Learn how to show them how to calculate 587 using Alleymom's KISS approach, which only requires access to Watchtower litterature or a WT CD.

  Cheers

  Chris
• 

  Doug Mason

  I agree with Black Sheep.
  
  Stick to facts.
  
  Show how the GB/WTS misquotes/misrepresents/distorts the authorities it says it is quoting.
  
  A JW follows the GB because of who it claims to be, regardless of what the GB is saying. The JW follows the interpretation they have been given. The JW believes you are wrong, no matter how right your explanation might look ("even Satan can appear as an angel of light").
  
  You have to first destroy the mental stranglehold, or at least sow the seed that will, in time, grow.
  
  The neo-Babylonian chronology is a good ground, since this is based on facts, not on exegesis. The Bible does not provide dates in terms of the Julian or Gregorian calendars.
  
  Remember, there are hidden agendas at play -- particularly the fears of the outcomes of disfellowshipping and shunning.
  
  You need to ask yourself "what am I trying to achieve?" Are you simply trying to get them to get out from the organization's control or are you trying to get them to accept the free gift of salvation, which is available regardless of doctrinal errors on their part, or yours?
  
  Doug
• 

  Mary

  What if you could get this point across to them before the scriptures fly? Would they still be able to twist scripture to support their guesses effectivily...or would they be persuaded to admit their ignorance instead? Has anyone tried this before with any results good or bad?

  I think alot of us have the same idea: great place to start is Alleymom's thread using ONLY the bible to prove that Jerusalem was not destroyed in 607 BCE but in 586 BCE. It's extremely difficult trying to convince a Witness of anything that contradicts the WTS's teachings-----even if your source is the Bible. That's just the way cults and brainwashing work. One thing you need to do when 'discussing' doctrine with Witnesses, is make them stay on the subject. Witnesses are infamous for leaping from subject to subject and of course nothing gets settled that way and they walk away feeling a smug sense of superiority that they 'won' the discussion. Kindly keep them on the one subject. They'll be shocked and have no response and their final comment will be "I'm going to check into this myself and get back to you." Naturally, they'll run to the elders who will simply dismiss the facts, tell them not to doubt and that it's Satan trying to undermine their faith. They'll most likely be instructed not to ever go back and talk to you about the subject again.
• 

  kicky

  Learn how to show them how to calculate 587 using Alleymom's KISS approach, which only requires access to Watchtower litterature or a WT CD. I have the WTCD. What, or where is the alleymoms kiss approach? is there a link to it?
• 

  Narkissos

  There is always more to a text than its interpretation; and you can trust any text to resist interpretation -- the more farfetched the interpretation, the stronger the resistance. Provided the text is read, of course,rather than "quoted" or "discussed".

  Even JWs pay lip service to "context" and know how to use it to make a point when it happens to fall on their side.

  Thematic (topic) disputes "using" scripture as a weapon are mostly a waste of time. They start by asking an unscriptural question(an essential JW strategy) and then summon "scriptures," i.e. verses out of context, to answer it (or, actually, as prooftexts to back up a ready answer);even though those verses were not written to answer that question.

  Reading a passage in context, or, better, a whole text (a Gospel, an epistle), leaving our questions at the doorstep to listen to what it actually says, doesn't solve every problem but drastically reduces the room for (mis)interpretation. When you can get a JW to sit and read a chapter of the Bible with you, before discussing anything, it considerably modifies his/her perspective (and often yours, too). All the "Bible studies" I made during my last few months as a JW were plain readings, with very few comments. And that was very enlightening to all.
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  Mary

  Learn how to show them how to calculate 587 using Alleymom's KISS approach, which only requires access to Watchtower litterature or a WT CD. I have the WTCD. What, or where is the alleymoms kiss approach? is there a link to it?

  Believe me, you won't find Alleymom's KISS approach on the WT's CD ROM anymore than you'd find an excerpt from Crisis on Consicence on there. Here's the link: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx
• 

  Pahpa

  The average JW leaves the reasoning of scriptures to the Watchtower Society. JWs are only successful parroting the same Watchtower line when talking to a public that knows even less about the Bible. Usually, when they do meet someone with some understanding of scripture, they become defensive and are only thinking of how to "overcome" the argument rather than reasoning on the argument itself. That is why it is so difficult to maintain rational discussion about the Bible with JWs.
• 

  Terry

  Reading a passage in context, or, better, a whole text (a Gospel, an epistle), leaving our questions at the doorstep to listen to what it actually says, doesn't solve every problem but drastically reduces the room for (mis)interpretation.

  So very true, Narkissos!

  I reminded my boyhood friend (who is still a JW) of this recently. He was talking about how he could get disfellowshipped for eating with me (if he got caught).

  I said to him, "Oh, you mean the way the Pharisees accused Jesus of eating with sinners?"

  His mouth fell open.
• 

  M.J.

  Thanks for that bit of insight, Narkissos. Your suggestion will definitely come in handy.

  even though those verses were not written to answer that question.

  Great point. A good thing to say is, "Wait a minute. I don't think this verse was written to address the question you're asking. Let's read the chapter to get a better feel for what it was addressing."

  Another thing I find useful is avoid making the discussion about whether the WTS is right or wrong. Structure the discussion so that the JW has to admit that even though they may not agree, the other side at least seems to have some pretty valid reasoning for seeing it differently.