Jesus, Michael, archangels - People who live in glass houses shouldn't....

by Inquisitor 15 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Inquisitor
    Inquisitor

    Jesus may not be Archangel Michael (as the WTS teaches), but it is still conceivable that he may be an Archangel.

    The arguments often heard on JWD are very adamant that the role of Archangelship is sooooo below his lofty reach. But is there valid scriptural proof that it is so? These arguments may just be a sincere attempt to expose the fallacy of JW doctrine. However, they are surely very convenient to the pro-Trinitarian camp. I mean if Jesus is truly God, he mustn't be demoted in any way to the role of Archangel, correct?

    Of course, motive alone does not prove that their arguments are in error. So I shall make the following counter-response and allow you to be the judge of their arguments and mine. My material draws on what was written by lovelylil and David Reed on this subject. You can find her thread here and his website here.

    My aim is to scrutinize the arguments that have been used to dismiss the notion that Jesus might be an Archangel. Proof that Jesus isn't Michael is NOT proof that Jesus isn't an archangel.

    (1)

    1 Thess 4:16 - "the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet"

    The WTS erred in presuming that this text is conclusive evidence that the Lord must necessarily be an archangel. Lovelylil and Reed were initially correct. Christ's descent is marked by the herald of an archangel's voice. It doesn't explicitly say that Christ was himself calling out. But the funny thing was that lovelylil and Reed then goes on to commit the same WTS mistake: they read too much INTO the text, only at the other extreme.

    The scripture does not say that the Lord did NOT call out with an archangel's voice. Lovelylil and Reed makes the mistake of completely dismissing this possibility. The Lord may be the source of that archangel's voice, he may not. Without drawing on external sources to that effect, nothing in this text makes the claim that JWs or Trinitarians are clamoring for.

    Lovelylil attempts to prove that the Lord's descent was heralded by angels other than himself by referring to Gospels Matthew 25:31 and Mark 8:38. This only leaves a bigger mess in the debate. In the forementioned Gospels, Jesus' returns with angels, but there is nothing mentioned of angels announcing his arrival. Even if they did, it would be the raucous calls of an army, not of a sole archangel. How that is even remotely relevant to 1 Thess 4:16, is left unexplained.

    (2)

    Daniel 10:13 - " Michael, one of the foremost/chief princes"

    This text bombs out of the water the assertion that there is only one archangel...ONLY IF... the rank of chief prince corresponds with archangel.

    Just because "chief" means "head/arch" and "prince" is interpreted as "angel", doesn't mean that chief prince = archangel. If we accept this flawed reasoning, then it must be a fact that Prime Minister = Archbishop!! Is it not even plausible that chief prince and archangels belong to different classes of angelic hierarchy?

    But let's be generous and suppose that lovelylil and Reed are correct. Let's pretend that chief prince does mean archangel. What then? Obviously, the WTS teaching of a solo archangel is ruined. But it does nothing to imply that Jesus cannot be another archangel. The Trinitarians must justify why Jesus isn't an archangel.

    (3)

    Jude 9 - "Not daring to bring a judgment against Satan in abusive terms,’ Michael warned Satan: "May the Lord rebuke you"."

    Basically the argument against the JW belief is this: If Michael couldn't tell Satan to f*ck off but Jesus could, doesn't it show that they are two different beings?

    The problem with this argument is there are too many unanswered questions to make the above assumption.

    Was Michael intending to verbally abuse Satan? If so, did Jesus ever "verbally abuse" Satan? When? How? What did he say? Note that whatever it was Michael intended to use against Satan, it was harsh. Other translations use the terms "slanderous accusation" (NIV), "railing accusation" (KJV), "blasphemous judgement" (English Std Version).

    What evidence is there that even Jesus ever used such harsh words with the Devil?

    (4)

    Rev 12:6,7 - baby Jesus (according to mainstream Christians) and Michael the warring angel, surely these are two individuals?!

    Yes, that would be the case provided that JWs do not argue these are different events penned next to each other: the anachronistic argument. And before mainstream Christians hiss and boo, they had better remember that they too employ this technique in dismissing the apparent discrepancies between the two creation accounts of Genesis 1 and 2. When events don't have to occur chronologically, loop-holes miraculously disappear.

    Conclusion:

    I'm not saying that I favour the JW view over the beliefs of mainstream Christians. But the latter must make a stronger case before attempting to mock JW beliefs. Such attempts can and do backfire. The reason it is so difficult to establish dogma is that the Bible is ambiguous. Its "language" can be used to argue so many different perspectives. "What is truth?", as Pilate would say.

    I can see no reason to suppose that there is only one archangel and his name is Michael aka Jesus ( the JW belief). In fact, I do not know why Michael has to be equated with Jesus. There is obviously no explicit scripture saying that it must be so. But then again, the scriptures do allow for that interpretation, a conclusion that Trinitarians and literalist Christians vehemently deny.

    On the other hand, I also see no reason to suppose that there are many archangels and yet Jesus cannot be one of them. You want Michael and Jesus to be two beings, not one? Sure! But that doesn't automatically mean that Jesus cannot be an Archangel. Surely one who is exalted above angels has to at least be an Archangel.

    But is Christ more than that? The nature of Jesus always draws us back to the Athanasian vs Arian debate. I don't feel comfortable with people dismissing the Archangel-ship of Jesus without admitting that they are (at least on a subconscious level) doing so because they believe Jesus is God (possibly pro-Trinitarian).

    INQ

  • NewTruth
    NewTruth

    Hi there:

    Your post confused me and I don't know what you believe???? You were being such a 'fair' guy, I don't know how you feel. Sorry, maybe I missed it.

    For me..: JESUS IS DEFINATELY MICHAEL. NO QUESTION IN MY MIND..

    1. Only one person is prophesied in Gen. 3:15 to bruise Satan in head...

    2. Only one person is going to battle Satan and conquer him... in Rev. 12

    3. Only one person is going to stand up for his people in Dan. 12..

    JESUS

  • glenster
    glenster

    I was just thinking about this. I put most of the Michael things in the
    "Archangel Michael" post a few pages back under "Beliefs, Doctrine & and Prac-
    tices." Here's some of what I have so far:

    The JWs leaders claim Jesus must be archangel Michael--some trinitarians think
    so (if not insist). The JWs leaders' claim that Jesus is the archangel Michael
    god that, since 1954, you give obeisance to but not worship (Luke 24:52; Heb.1:
    6 despite Ex.34:14 defining monotheism as not allowing worship/obeisance to a
    god and Col.2:18 not allowing it for an angel) narrows it down, though.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archangel_Michael#Michael_as_Jesus.2C_part_of_the_Godhead

    The JWs leaders require agreement for salvation to rules that are meant to be
    "144,000" (Rev.14:1-5) exclusive (medical blood use ban, expanded ideas of what
    "worldiness" means ruling out most holiday celebrations as involving things with
    pagan connotations despite Rom.14 and 1 Cor.8-11, and contributing to unneces-
    sary problems, even fatalities, for followers in Germany and Malawi and ruling
    out civil service jobs of various kinds, that Jesus invisibly returned in 1914
    and picked the JWs leaders as his sole religious leaders in 1919, that wars,
    earthquakes, etc., have gotten worse since 1914, that Armageddon is always just
    a little ahead, etc.)--play prophet badly by guaranteeing things you'd need a
    divine revelation to guarantee, sometimes denying they play prophet (to ward off
    the predictable charge of false prophesy).

    The Catch-22 is that to make any of their most distinctive things required for
    salvation sound sure-fire by the best reasoning about the best evidence, they
    have to cook up the books and use forced points every time--there's no shortage
    of evidence for that. There's then no credibility to the 144,000 claim (if they
    didn't lose you as soon as you heard something so arrogant), nor much likelihood
    they merely erred. Some critics of them may use forced points themselves, but
    it can be shown evidentially and doesn't need to be done editorially.

    Both sides have something they say about Jesus for all the verses used in the com-
    parison. A few of the verses are harder to imagine immediately for either view.
    Some people on either side of it force their point, but the JWs leaders can be
    predicted to always use forced points and misrepresent research books and what
    the most reasonable alternative views really are for this or other "144,000"-
    type distinctive stances they require for salvation, yet claim an elitist
    "144,000" righteousness (and claim for the collection plate dollar). It doesn't
    work honestly.

    Forced points and mocking on either side aside, the JWs leaders play false
    prophet and people have been divided and gotten hurt or killed unnecessarily, so
    there's an ethical need to say so without unsubstantiated accusation.

    At Gen.3:15, the seed of Eve will crush the devil's head with his heel. Jesus
    conquered the devil's hold on death with the crucifixion (Heb.2:14,15). Paul
    predicts Jesus will finish the devil off at Rom.16:20. John's prophecy has Mi-
    chael lead an army of angels to battle against the dragon and his angels at Rev.
    12:7-9, but Jesus win the war at Rev.20:1-15, and the one isn't identified as
    the other.

    1 Thess.4:16 doesn't clarify whether it's Jesus' voice or an accompanying
    voice, or, if imagined to be Jesus' voice, is meant literally. There would need
    to be an identity connection made elsewhere and there isn't one. Instead, at
    Rev.19:16,17, while the King of Kings descends, apostle John "also saw an angel
    standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice."

    Jesus being one of the chief princes is bad for the JWs leaders' archangel Mi-
    chael guarantee because Jesus is given as the only-begotten/unique/monogenes
    Son. The mainstream view has Jesus as a unique example of someone called Son
    whereas the angels are called sons of god so it's not unique. That's why the
    JWs leaders' aren't straight about that and play prophet that an archangel is a
    higher quality being than an angel and not just a chief of angels as indicated.

    No other archangels are named in the Bible, but related research indicates
    that Michael is given as one of the chief princes in Daniel because Jewish
    culture believed in a number of archangels. The JWs leaders' stance is that
    Michael was the only archangel, but they only use related history to make the
    facts fit the theory (Ante-Nicene fathers, cross, lately agreeing with science
    about the age of the world, etc.), in this case to force that Jesus is Michael.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_%28archangel%29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archangel

    I don't think Jude 1:9 helps decide which of the two identities for Jesus to
    use. Jesus and Michael given as two different beings in Rev. is the way the
    mainstream view would depict them, as alternate beings, and not how you'd iden-
    tify Michael as aka Jesus. (Having Jesus on God's throne is a bad way to dis-
    tinguish the JWs leaders' Jesus from the mainstream one, too.)

    The clearest way for the writers to have the Son known as Michael would be to
    not call him Jesus--just archangel Michael, but it wasn't done. Some Bible
    figures have more than one name (Saul/Paul, etc.). If the Bible meant aka Je-
    sus, the clearest way for the writers to identify Jesus as archangel Michael
    would be to write "Jesus is archangel Michael," but that doesn't show up any-
    where, either.

    Either way, if the writers wanted readers to have the JWs leaders' view and
    not the mainstream view, the writer wouldn't have Jesus called Logos, called a
    God/god of creation, the JWs leaders' version of God creating through Michael like God healing through an apos-
    tle to indicate to others he's a messenger of God yet deny a god for it at Is.44
    and 45, various titles or attributes of God, use all those God in Isaiah-type "I
    am"s, be prayed to, worshipped (have obeisance done to a god, Ex.34:14, or an-
    gel, Col.2:18, by the JWs leaders' view), have Jesus called wisdom and set a precedent with Prov.8:22-31
    for imagining God's wisdom as a person with accompanying pronoun uses for God
    and wisdom to be used in the mainstream view with God and Jesus verses, etc.

    The JWs leaders view is easy to imagine for individual verses, too, but you
    find yourself imagining a lot of God things figuratively without any need to do
    it, and no Jesus is Michael verses.

    An added reason the Bible writers, if they had the JWs leaders' view, would
    want to make the JWs leaders' case clear those ways is it requires the idea of
    a great apostasy early on (in 2007, the JWs leaders still haven't found all
    their 144,000 yet--so JWs leaders can still be picked from them). Early his-
    tory indicates the followers thought Jesus was God that appeared as a human.

    The JWs leaders' alleged original 144,000 were especially righteous but
    strangely non-committal and quickly disappeared without leaving a trace for cen-
    turies. Polycarp, Ignatius, Irenaeus, etc., show up early with good credentials
    (a lot better than the credentials of the JWs leaders) with the mainstream view.
    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polycarp
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignatius_of_Antioch
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristides_the_Athenian
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus
    110-140 AD The Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians 12:2
    The letter of the Smyrnaeans or the Martyrdom of Polycarp, Chap.17:2
    105-115 AD Ignatius
    Ignatius to the Ephesians, chaps.7 and 19
    Ignatius to Polycarp, chaps.3 and 8
    120-130 AD Aristides Apology 16
    175-185 AD Irenaeus
    Against Heresies, book V, chap.xviii.2
    Against Heresies, 4:20:3-4
    Against Heresies X.l

    We don't know of the Arians who showed up a couple of centuries later to have
    any such early followers to refer to, just some of the JWs leaders forced
    points. If God did something as drastic as the crucifixion and needed followers
    to think Jesus was the JWs leaders' Michael god who was called "Lord" and prayed
    to too much and not called Michael at all, and the followers were mistaken in
    having the mainstream view so soon, God would have added another chapter to
    clarify the JWs leaders' view easily (Jesus is created archangel Michael and
    shouldn't be worshipped or prayed to--you wouldn't need a whole 3 x 5 card) but
    He didn't.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucian_of_Antioch

    The JWs leaders' case, playing prophet with forced points they use for any
    distinctive requirement for salvation aside, isn't unimaginable for individual
    verses, just not needed or better indicated by scriptural emphasis or related
    history, so has a lot weaker a case for being the originally intended view.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Such attempts at figuring out apocalyptical characters "from the 'Bible' only" remind me of my own guesses when I read (on this forum for instance) references to characters in a popular American sci-fi movie which I have never seen. I can construct a vague image but until I do watch the movie I won't know for sure.

    Leaving the book of Enoch (which is quoted verbatim in Jude) out of the discussion amounts to ruling out the solution right from the start -- a very common attitude after all.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    I think you will get a much better idea, if you make the subject more of a academic debate than theological one.

  • The Dragon
    The Dragon

    With all our research and guesses....if we never find the truth or answer..or get our work graded by the inventer of the puzzle..can insanity result?

    Or can guesses replace answers and facts?

  • Inquisitor
    Inquisitor

    Dear New Truth,

    If you came here wanting to hear the answer to "Is Jesus Archangel Michael?", then you will be disappointed (unless we hear more from Narkissos or someone who would like to counter my points with some extra info). I for one, do not really know. surprise surprise! lol

    But at this stage, IMHO sola scriptura does not rule out interpreting that Jesus is an Archangel. And by scriptures I mean that which is in the current Bible canon (not the Apocrypha).

    Whether Jesus is Archangel Michael really depends on how you interpret the scriptures. From your point of view, it is crucial to ask WHY Jesus has to be called by another name. Like glenster said, the other Bible characters who changed names do not force this guessing game on us. We're often told explicitly, e.g. Abram became Abraham, etc. Why is it different with Jesus and Michael? This is the greatest stumbling point that keeps me from saying that the JWs are correct.

    Certainly making Jesus Archangel diminishes his role as God the Son, but this issue is the weakest assault JWs could do to the Trinity dogma. I currently feel that this JW interpretation is not the hyped-up anti-Trinitarian conspiracy that glenster thinks it is. They merely interpret it that way because it fits with their belief system, not vice versa.

    Thanks for your testimony. I like em short and sweet if I should hear any . lol

    Have yet to tackle the beast of a post that follows yours!

    INQ

  • Inquisitor
    Inquisitor

    Dear The Dragon (or should it be "Dear Mr. Dragon sir"? )

    There are guesses that are entirely based upon "gut-feeling", "intuition", "emotional state" and super Spider-senses. I for one do not find introspection on topics like these to be a reliable source of knowledge.

    Then there are guesses that some call "educated". Guesses based on facts and figures. Contextual information, probabilities etc.

    Where the answer eludes us for the time being, I would rather stick with the latter form of guessing. Discover what the probabilities are, work through a process of elimination and make a stand based upon that estimation. Working with a product of rational thought is better than presuming upon the benevolence of a higher authority (not necessarily God btw) that may or may not exist (the benevolence too) to tell us what to do. I think that's where frankiespeakin and I are in complete agreement, no?

    That of course is my philosophy at this stage in my life. Of course I could already be insane and don't even know it. You would make a better judge of that than I.

    INQ

  • Inquisitor
    Inquisitor

    Dear glenster,

    I say this in the nicest way possible: Could you send your post to Jenny Craigand then re-post it in 6 months?

    I don't mind long posts that are relevant to the issues I've raised. You've chosen instead to adopt a rather preachy one, telling us why JWs and their leaders are such gawd-awful creatures. They are, but that's beside the point! There is a reason I've posted my views in point form: It allows you to address each point in a coherent manner, if you should so desire.

    Instead you've gone on and on to the ass-end of boredom. Ok that was a bit harsh. You did make one or two astute observations as I have already noted in my reply to NewTruth aka Jesus.

    We don't know of the Arians who showed up a couple of centuries later to have any such early followers to refer to...

    Also the Arians aren't Indo-Iranians. They're not lost and mysterius. You may not know much about the Arians as yet, but that doesn't necessarily mean no one else does.

    Read When Jesus Became God - The Struggle to Define Christianity during the Last Days of Rome by Richard E. Rubenstein. Perhaps then you will have more than just a miserable Lucian of Antioch to cite from a loose-content online encyclopedia plagued with non-expert editing.

    BInq, where B stands for Bitchy

  • SirNose586
    SirNose586

    1 Thessalonians 4:16, their greatest argument that Jesus was the archangel Michael, could've been scrapped entirely, had the NW Translating Committee (Franz, Schroeder, Gangas, Sydlik?) decided to use their precious J references and put "Jehovah" instead of the Lord. It's in a footnote in their Reference version. So they like swapping "Jehovah" for "the Lord," but only when it suits them!

    Another argument I didn't like was that they said Jesus must be Michael, because Michael fights with his own angels, and Jesus has his own angels, and there aren't two angelic armies. I think it's funny how often they will say that the Father is working through Jesus, and how Jehovah commands things through Jesus, but yet Jesus cannot command angels through Michael. For them to ignore that possibility is for them to betray their own rhetoric on many scriptures that would otherwise give more authority to Jesus, rather than his Father. Under that same logic, President Bush's troops and General David Petraeus's troops must refer to two different armies.

    Futhermore, Hebrews chapters 1 and 2 I think are the greatest arguments against Jesus being an angel, even an archangel. Funny how the WT does not mention these scriptures in their "Michael" entry in the Insight book.

    Michael is described as a "prince of [Daniel's] people." This is supported by scriptures showing him defending the Jews against Satan, and protecting the Israelites in general. When did Michael get promoted to serving in behalf of all mankind, as Jesus does? And when did this prince get promoted to King of Kings and Lord of Lords? How can Michael hold those two titles at once?

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