1 Pet 3:18 & 1 Cor. 15:45--resurrection

by M.J. 25 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Narkissos

  1 Cor 15:45 is not oriented toward identifying either Adam or Christ as individuals qualitatively , but instead is a figurative description concerning the big picture contrast between fallen humanity and adoption into the divine status of God's children.

  This is apparent from what immediately follows 1 Corinthians 15;45, and transcends the contextual issue of individual resurrection which was imposed by the Corinthian debate:

  But it is not the spiritual that is first, but the physical (actually psychical, corresponding to Adam as "living psukhè), and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we will also bear the image of the man of heaven.

  And this will become even clearer with the later resurgence of the Adam/Christ antithesis without the issue of individual resurrection (or at least the how part of it) in Romans 5; or its still later reprise in Colossians/Ephesians (where the expectation of a future resurrection gives way to a "spiritual," metaphorically spatial, actualisation of the concept: the believers are already resurrected with Christ and sitting with him in the heavenly places), with the theme of the old man and the new man (mistranslated by the NWT as "personalities").
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  Leolaia

  I guess the WT isn't totally out of line by making a distinction between "flesh" and that which is possessed by "spiritual beings".

  Well, a distinction between flesh and spirit (often in metaphorical terms) is latent throughout many passages in the NT. Where the Society departs from the conceptual background of the NT is its claim that all spirit beings lack bodies per se and must "materialize them" (as opposed to changing the form of one's body), and that Jesus in particular was not bodily resurrected. Rather, they claim that his body was seperately removed or dissolved by God, to give the appearance that he was raised bodily (see Insight, 1988, p. 349; Paradise Earth, 1989, p. 144). This goes against the whole point of the significance of the empty tomb, which was empty because Jesus had been bodily raised. So, unlike Paul's conception in 1 Corinthians 15, there is no concept of a fleshly body being transformed into a spiritual body.

  If one holds to inerrancy of scripture, it seems the choice would be to either hold on to the gospels' account of Christ's resurrected flesh and reinterpret Paul & Peter's statements which suggest the resurrection body is not "flesh". I've heard it argued that "flesh and blood" is an idiom for natural, fallen man (as in Matt 16:17, Gal 1:16, Eph 6:12), which was the gist of what Paul meant in 1:Cor 15:50.

  Yes, and "flesh" is used in this sense as well as indicating the weaknesses of man, but Paul is also clear that it is not merely that weak humanity cannot attain the kingdom of God, as this statement occurs in the midst of a discussion of kinds of bodies. "Flesh and blood" is also used to indicate the physicality of the resurrection body in Ignatius, Smyrnaeans, just as "flesh and bone" serves the same purpose in Luke 24:39 which construes Jesus' resurrection body as indeed fleshly. This passage is clearly anti-docetic, as are the references to Jesus' "flesh and blood" in Ignatius.

  I'm afraid one is not going to get a coherent doctrine without admitting some variety of perspective in the NT.
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  Narkissos

  So, unlike Paul's conception in 1 Corinthians 15, there is no concept of a fleshly body being transformed into a spiritual body.

  Actually, I would rather think that in the Pauline perspective it is eitherresurrection (for the dead) ortransformation (for the living at the parousia). Afaik, Paul rather describes resurrection proper as the clothing of a "naked" being (1 Corinthians 15 with the "naked seed" analogy, and of course 2 Corinthians 5).
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  JosephMalik

  In citing 1 Pet 3:18, the WTS says Christ being made alive "in the spirit" means he became a spirit. But does being raised "in the spirit" mean the same as being raised "as a spirit"?

  M.J.

  First the verse:

  18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit. (NIV). Using the word Spirit as an alternate for the word God to which it refers here is not uncommon. Spirit or holy Spirit is a complex term that can mean something different every time it is used. Stay with the text and try to get it’s meaning that way. The next verse will clear some of this up for you. 19 through whom (through or by who?) (by the expressed will of the God or Spirit that raised Him) also he went and preached to the spirits in prison. These spirits in prison were of course taken from the nation of Israel, His own disciples to which he preached the Kingdom of God for some 40 more days after such a resurrection or being made alive. They were now between covenants and would remain such prisoners to sin until the ransom was accepted by God. The complexity of the resurrection itself be it in non-human or human form or some combination of both is not being described by Peter. Only the purpose of such ministry is now being discussed. All this we know was done in the flesh as our Lord walked among them to conclude this ministry as a human being. Using the word spirit to designate God, the Faith or some member in this faith is also not uncommon and we find it used this way in Acts 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." So just what the nature or Christ was in precise terms such as human or non-human or a hypostasis nature we will not learn from this verse. What we should all have come to understand however is that by this time this resurrected Christ that was raised by God and walked on this earth in the flesh was human, immortal and visible to His disciples. In fact the body they all saw was the very same one that was executed. The body He raised personally as promised with God's expressed permission.

  1 Cor. 15:45 says Adam became a living soul, and the "last Adam" became a life-giving spirit.

  M.J. Is this in reference to his resurrection body?

  Paul is still responding to the letter the Corinthians sent to him in which they discussed many features and doctrines they were supporting in Corinth among the Jewish and Gentile believers. Paul has been correcting their thinking and could reply to them from personal experience which was what? His encounter with the non-human resurrected Christ, which blinded him. Paul knew that this "last Adam" this human description of the now resurrected Christ was significantly different from that original Adam. Paul had an encounter with His non-human nature which when combined with its human or Adamic origin can now be described as a "life-giving spirit." (a more than human being with a specific purpose to give life to the human race). And Paul was careful to single out this human nature, this human side of the Christ as the nature we will receive from him. John also knew all this and described the dual nature of the resurrected Christ in simpler terms. In all this Paul was simply trying to show us that our new resurrected human bodies that were originally sown as a (human) seed would some day not only be human but immortal, a gift from God or spiritual, something Adam never attained (but should have). Paul also knew that both human and non-human natures were now a part of this Christ and He could now be referenced either way without contradiction.

  Joseph
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  Narkissos

  Following on my previous post, an afterthought: in 1 Corinthians 15 Paul doesn't suggest that the resurrection body is the former body transformed, quite the opposite:

  But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" Fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And as for what you sow, you do not sow the body that is to be, but a bare (= "naked") seed, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.

  This kind of "resurrection" sounds like a new creation (rather than the WT re-creation, because it is something else than the physical, earthly, fleshly, mortal body which was lost in death). And of course it implies something (like the "soul" or "spirit") passing from one body to the next, and being "naked" in between.

  In 2 Corinthians 5 the heavenly body (the "building" opposed to the earthly "tent") is pictured as already existing in heaven:

  For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have (ekhomen, present tense) a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling-- if indeed, when we have taken it off we will not be found naked. For while we are still in this tent, we groan under our burden, because we wish not to be unclothed but to be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

  To be "further clothed" (without going through a "naked," i.e. bodyless, intermediary state) seems to be the privilege expected for "the living who live until the Lord's parousia" (1 Thessalonians 4:15) and are "changed". Several metaphors ("clothing," "swallowing") of 2 Corinthians 5 are already in 1 Corinthians 15:52ff:

  the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled:
  "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

  The next (probably post-Pauline) step occurs when what is already is heaven is regarded as the true being of Christians who, while physically on earth, are already (spiritually) resurrected in heaven with Christ. What is expected, then, is no longer a resurrection but a revelation or manifestation of this true being, e.g. Colossians 3:

  So if you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth, for you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with him in glory.

  Cf. also Ephesians 2:6. Still later, the Pastorals will oppose this (Gnostic) trend and condemn the idea that "the resurrection has already taken place."

  Anyway, as far as the Gospels are concerned, the Pauline notion of resurrection runs contrary to the anti-docetic apparitions stories where Jesus is recognised physically (for instance by the wounds on his hands and feet), but nicely suits the stories where he is not recognised (e.g. by Mary in John 20 or by the Emmaus disciples in Luke 24).
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  JosephMalik

  In 2 Corinthians 5 the heavenly body (the "building" opposed to the earthly "tent") is pictured as already existing in heaven:

  Narkissos,

  Such positive statements were assurances to the Faith of the certainty of the promises already made by Paul. This was a guarantee to them as if it already happened to them because of their Faith in Christ the one that will perform such tasks and now existing in such heavens. But we also know that this is also a projection or look into the future when such promises made by Christ will be fulfilled literally by Him for Paul also continued to say: 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

  We find similar assurances regarding our Justification or being Saved as if we have already escaped such judgment. Yet we should never lose sight of the fact that: Mt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. And so "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ." The scriptures simply do not prejudge our intentions and keep this positive attitude as if a favorable outcome for us is inevitable.

  Narkissos: The next (probably post-Pauline) step occurs when what is already is heaven is regarded as the true being of Christians who, while physically on earth, are already (spiritually) resurrected in heaven with Christ. What is expected, then, is no longer a resurrection but a revelation or manifestation of this true being, e.g. Colossians 3: So if you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth, for you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with him in glory.

  Such verses are dealing with our being born again in Christ and thus raised with Him to a new found status continuing Paul's theme regarding our Justification or being Saved. Our being dead to sin is not dealing with the resurrected nature we will some day literally attain. Christ as judge is mindful of our existence so our hope continues (not a literal existence in some non-human form) by being hidden with Christ. It leaves all that to this future time when we will be revealed with him in glory. What is expected then is still a physical and human resurrection (John 11:24,25) since such hidden ones will be favorably judged at such a time and revealed to the world. It remains true that despite attempts to speed up matters as the WT and some others are doing making more of such texts than intended that: 2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

  The few easily explained instances where our Lord was not recognized after His resurrection are overshadowed by the 40 days that our Lord walked and talked with his disciples. Such attempts at spiritualizing a man that could conceal himself in the midst of a crowd trying to kill him (Luke 4:30) are countered when we learn. Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

  Joseph
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  M.J.

  I'd like to "resurrect" this thread...

  So...putting on the glorified "robe", is to obtain a new glorified body in the resurrection, huh?

  In 1 Cor 15:52, two categories are brought up: the dead, who will be raised imperishable (given a new glorified body?), and "we" (those who are not dead) who will be changed at the parousia.

  So referring to the category of those who are still alive, v53 states the "perishable must put on the imperishable".

  Thus it would seem that Paul's conception here is that the "seed" is the core of the person, the soul, which is reclothed with a glorified body in the resurrection (no need to transform the old body).

  However, when he speaks of a transformation of the body, he is referring to those who are still alive in their mortal bodies at the Lord's return. (cf. Phillipians 3:21 & Rom 8:23).

  The thought of "reclothing" the deceased as opposed to "transforming" seems to go along with the passages provided by Leolaia in 2 Enoch and Ascension of Isaiah.

  But, it does not seem to be equivalent to the conception of Jesus' resurrected body, which is said to have not seen corruption.

  Trying to sort through all the concepts here is a real challenge!

  Incidentally, the concept of transformation, I think, is foreign to the WTS teaching that obtaining a "spiritual body" requires death. This is rooted in Russell's "Mystery" doctrine.
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  Narkissos

  I think what we rationalise as "Pauline anthropology" is far from systematic and less than consistent.

  What the "naked I" we gather from putting together texts such as 1 Corinthians 15; 2 Corinthians 5 or Philippians is, is never positively defined, either as "soul" or "spirit" -- from the perspective of 1 Corinthians, both words are unfitting as psukhè applies to the "first Adam" and pneuma to the "second Adam," i.e. to the economy of death vs. resurrection-immortality. In 1 Corinthians 15 the "seed" which can be described as "naked" (suggesting incorporeality, from the parallel with 2 Corinthians 5) can also be described as the former "body," v. 44: It is sown a physical (psychical) body, it is raised a spiritual body.

  Pauline thought is obviously drifting within the same text and a fortiori from one text to another, which makes any synthesis problematic. Especially when you notice that the very notion of (individual) "resurrection" which is the topic of 1 Corinthians 15 is absent from the comeback of the Adam-Christ argument in Romans 5.

  The notion of Jesus "not seeing corruption" is special to Acts and has little to do with Paulinism imo.
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  M.J.

  It is also important to recognize that Paul was trying to explain the resurrection belief to Gentiles in Corinth who have a Hellenistic background, who may find the idea of a future resurrection as odd -- if not repugnant (from the Platonic point of view).

  I went into another reading of Acts 15 with this assumption in place. However Acts 15:12-34 reads as an argument directed toward Sadducees, not docetists. Particularly verses 18 & 32. Anyone have any thoughts?

  Thanks Narkissos for that additional insight...Still absorbing everything.
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  M.J.

  I just found an interesting looking article on the subject. Haven't gone through it all yet but looks pretty relevant:

  http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/bodily.html