by Zico 63 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Could that mean "He is the lamb (that was slain) before the founding of the world"- He is the lamb that was slain before the founding of the world Rev.13:8
The simplest (and, I'm afraid, most likely) exegesis relates the temporal clause to the main verb: everyone whose name has not been written / from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slaughtered. (NRSV).
However the peculiar word order allows for the other rendering, which is way more fun.
LT
When do babies get to make their choice or a chance to choose?They don't. Their parents make those choices for them. Your point?
So you are saying, that when a baby dies, his, her parents make the choice as to their salvation?
What if that baby wants nothing to do with God?
DD:
'What if that baby wants nothing to do with God?'
Surely the baby has no concept of God? How can something with no concept of God want nothing to do with it?
Zico
So if babies get no choice, what makes a choice nessessary for anyone else
Zico,
DD:
'What if that baby wants nothing to do with God?'
Surely the baby has no concept of God? How can something with no concept of God want nothing to do with it?
If I'm not mistaken, I think DD means the choice the baby would make once it got to the age of responsibility....and supposedly god knows that choice while the baby is in the womb. Dawn, The society explains "the founding of the world" to mean AFTER Adam was born......however, I have never really known the proper meaning of this term. Nark? Btw.....who the heck is Dawn? It ain't Sirona is it? Gumby
'So if babies get no choice, what makes a choice nessessary for anyone else'
They have the ability to choose?
'If I'm not mistaken, I think DD means the choice the baby would make once it got to the age of responsibility....and supposedly god knows that choice while the baby is in the womb.'
Thanks Gumby, that makes sense. Is that explanation right DD?
Gumby,
The society explains "the founding of the world" to mean AFTER Adam was born.....
Lol, I had forgotten that one...
The real problem of "fromthe founding of the world" (apo katabolè kosmou) is not whether kosmos means the world or just "mankind" (as per the WT... and JosephMalik maybe ). At a purely semantic level, the scope is "cosmic" (!) even though only human history may be practically concerned (just as "always" or "everywhere" may actually refer to very different time or space ranges while keeping the same potentially infinite sense). And reducing katabolè to "AFTER Adam was born" (born?) is completely arbitrary (resorting to Hebrews 11:11 where, in a completely different context, descendants are explicitly referred to, katabolè spermatos,doesn't cast any light on apo katabolè kosmou).
The real problem is whether apo... (from...) means that the action has occurred at the beginning or has been occurring ever since the beginning. Whether the names are all written there since the foundation of the world (implying a pre- or supra-temporal view, apories intended) or have been written all along (implying a simpler temporal perspective). Same for the "lamb slaughtered" if one prefers the lectio difficilior (but see 17:8, where the same phrase is used of the names written in the book without the lamb slaughtered).
Luke 11:50 favours the second option (the blood of prophets has been poured throughout history); so does Hebrews 9:26: "he would have had to suffer again and again since the foundation of the world". Matthew 13:35; 25:34; Hebrews 4:3 can be read both ways.
Thanks Narkster, excellent comments
No Matter how the context reads, one thing is for sure. If the Lamb was slaughtered from the founding of the world.....god KNEW beforehand a redeemer would be required for Adams fall, hence, he knew in ADVANCE.
Some have said that he had a plan in mind ( that being jesus redemption) "just in case" Adam would fall. In other words, he didn't allow himself to know Adam would fall, but he made a way out BEFOREHAND just in case he did fall.
Gumby
Gumby,
Not sure. If the text simply means "their names have not been written (i.e., included among those written) throughout history in the book of the slaughtered lamb" this implies neither predestination nor even foreknowledge.
It is an entirely different case with the formula pro katabolès kosmou, "before the founding of the world," John 17:24; Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20. In the latter two passages some notion of predestination is unavoidable imo.
These responses make me wonder if the WTS is in the Calvinist camp. I had never considered this, given my understanding of the soteriology espoused by other groups created from the 19th century Advent movement.
Are the apparently "Calvinist" views espoused by JWs/ex-JWs or by others?
Doug
