The Power of the Question: what most are missing

by Vernon Williams 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Deputy Dog

  VW

  What is the reaon for the question on Christ?

  The WT teaches Jesus was just a man. So I like to ask them about John 6 where Jesus calls himself the bread of life which "came down from heaven." So when you ask about what came down, was it spirit, if yes. Then Jesus is part spirit and man. It really does not matter what they say came down, Jesus is, part what ever they say, and part man. Thus a dual nature.

  Most of the time they say "life force", so Jesus is a man with the "life force" of an angel? Would that not be a dual nature?
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  Deputy Dog

  VW

  I have read several books that deal wih interacting with the JWs. All fail.

  You will find Wilburs method very different. His whole thing revolves around maintaining control of the questions.
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  Vernon Williams

  Dep,

  My only answer is this: The Word came down from heaven and was made man.

  What was the Word?

  I do not know. I confess the Word became flesh but I don't have a clue "what" the Word is. I confess the Word is the Only Begotton Son of God.

  What do I mean by "only begotton?"

  I do not know.

  I do not know a lot. The Trinitarians "know." The Jehovah's Witnesses "know" something that is just the opposite.

  Right now, I do not cofess a lot of "whats" however, I do confess a relationship with the "whos" of the whole thing.

  My faith has been reduced to what I call "the absolute catholicity of the Early Church." What is absolutely catholic (small c) is a very, very narrow range.

  V. PS: Dep, I will share something with only you, however, you must not tell ANYONE: The Arians were probably closer to "catholic" than the backers of Nicea.....only the Arians lost politically as Nicea was enforced by emperial force...not theological correctness. I glad only you are aware of my thinking on this. I still get along with the Trinitarians as I can confess both the Nicean and Apostals Creeds with a clear conscience.
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  justhuman

  JW's are high controled sectarian group. They have been controled to control the questions that someone may ask them, in order to protect their belief system.

  Since I left JW's I had some discusions with some JW's that they had some doubts, Even to them I found out, that they were very hard to aproach.When their faith it is under a threat, they automatically raise a wall to protect their faith.

  Also a Mormons use the same technics. When I asked a mormon that you have come all the way from U.S.A to my country to preach to me Jesus Christ. Do you know that the first Bishop for my country is Apostle Barnabas, and in fact he is burried in Cyprus. Not to mention Lazarus that he also came and died here. So how can you come into my place and preach me Jesus!!! You are late for that 2000 years. When we had Christianity your ancestors propably they were hanging over the trees...

  And then he replied just like a typical J.W. He said that in Christianity there was an apostasy, and actually true Christianity lasted 100-150 years, and then Jesus choose them(mormons)because they are the ONLY ones that following the original Christian faith!!!

  Have I heart this before!!!
• 

  Deputy Dog

  VW

  V. PS: Dep, I will share something with only you, however, you must not tell ANYONE: The Arians were probably closer to "catholic" than the backers of Nicea.....only the Arians lost politically as Nicea was enforced by emperial force...not theological correctness. I glad only you are aware of my thinking on this. I still get along with the Trinitarians as I can confess both the Nicean and Apostals Creeds with a clear conscience.

  We can save the question about who or what determines Church/Kindom of God (Big C) membership for another day or another thread.
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  M.J.

  When we had Christianity your ancestors propably they were hanging over the trees...

  LOL. That's (very close to) a line right out of "My Big Fat Greek Wedding". Sorry, being your typical ignoramus Americanus much of my "knowledge" of other cultures comes from the movies...

  Lingle's stuff is good. But I've found myself leaning toward Narkissos' paradigm where I try to stay away from framing the conversation in such a way that suggests, "either your overall conceptual structure is right or mine is." End of story...
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  Qcmbr

  Justhuman - just to be a little pedantic you might want to look at the history of immigration to the USA - its likely that christianity was in the countries where immigrants came from not too long after Cyprus got it. In LDS theology Jesus never chose the Mormons because they followed the original christianity - utter tosh.
  
  When I debated with JWs it was always interesting because I know how to control the questions and 'guide' the answers to which I think is almost more important when controlling the discussion. With every JW I ever met it was like trying to hold a wriggling fish, you'd start talking about one topic and as soon as you'd cornered them they'd be off and flipping somewhere else (the really big and annoying hook slipper was the 'but do you know what <insert word such as agape> really means in the scriptures?' which was almost always utterly unrelated to the topic being discussed.
  
  Here are LDS tactics V LDS tactics I observed.
  
  JW under pressure:
  
  1/ I can't talk about that I need to talk to an elder. (You've got me but I can just shelve this by refusing to discuss it.)
  2/ Would you kill another <insert religion of other person> in a war? (you therefore don't have love one for another)
  3/ What do you call God / Why do you not call God Jehovah / Do you publish Jehovah's name? (I'm banking that you don't know the history of the actual word Jehovah but will be impressed by the scriptures cited to make known God's name)
  4/ Do you know what this scripture means..? (i.e. if you get it wrong - and you will - then I'll show you ergo I know more than you)
  
  LDS under pressure:
  
  1/ Pray and ask God and He'll tell you. (I'm not responsible for any decisions you make and I'm short on hard evidence)
  2/ The scriptures talk about a restoration - how could it be restored unless there was an apostacy? (If you can't spot the third/fourth .. option you will probably condemn your own religion with a simple agreement.)
  3/ God always has a prophet. The most important authority is the prophet's current word which overrules scripture. (Said more subtely but basically a negation of the supremacy of any scriptural argument made.)
  4/ How do you feel about that..? (absolute antitheis to the JW attack on what do you 'know' about that. Feelings are much easier to manipulate but also provide safe ground in a discussion since we all like to express an opinion that is unrefutable but not particularly threatening.)
  
  All in all I do prefer the LDS method (big surprise) but I also must confess to the following manipulative tactics used while teaching:
  
  1/ Flood of info teaching (way too much to take in - way to much to critically check.)
  2/ Get you to like me before I teach the message - its so much harder to say no to a friend.
  3/ Presentation of arguments as black or white.
  4/ Reliance on lack of factual knowledge to prove I'm the teacher.
  5/ Avoidance of too much substantial facts but lots of feeling based impressions.
  6/ Avoidance of controversial topics (Race and Priesthood, Adam / God theory etc..)
  
  In my defense however,I was sincere and was trying to lead people to Christ...
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  Deputy Dog

  Q

  Here's one for you. http://www.utlm.org/booklist/titles/approachingmormonsinlove_xb259.htm