by theMartian 121 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Seeker4,
The greatest testimony to the non-existence of god is god's total lack of comment on the subject. I'm sure if a god existed, it could prove its existence very, very easily.
How would you have God prove his existence? Would you want him to boom a voice down to earth or cause an earthwide vision? What would you have him say? If you were God what would you say?
Since this topic is about the God of the Bible, what convinces me that he doesn't exist is, as Richard Dawkins said, that he must be the most unpleasant character in all fiction.
In addition, the only positive evidence for his existence seems to be anecdotal stories from people who claim to have interacted with him. A person who today claims to have such experiences is invariably viewed as a lunatic.
First off we all know that Mr.AllanF is the most dangerous influence to the ex-jw community that being he's the most respected apologist representing the ex-jw community as represented by the comments made by the majority here at JWD, the biggest "scum on the dubs" site in the internet world with the latest info that can be found concerning Jehovah's Witnesses .......(takes a breath) and so we all need to be carefull brothers and sister that we do not adopt his apostate veiws that are leading many astray and into the darkness that exists outside where Satan and his demons reside awaiting their final destruction that's soon to be upon them in these final "days" of this old system of things. *has an alzheimers moment*
On a serious note, he makes a good point that many fail to see when discussing "god" on JWD.
He clarified it's 'the god of the bible' that most here are speaking of when discussing what god is like. He's always concieved as a "just and merciful" god and a god of 'love'. This is why so many say "there can't be a god because there is suffering in the world". Everyone assumes there is no creator because they usually assume posters are talking about Jehovah or his son Jesus as the true creators. This kind of thinking limits a persons ability to think any other way. however, there are many here who think beyond the box we grew up in an realise maybe any life-giver that might exist out there, perhaps isn't anything like what they concieve him as.
This is where we bump heads in our conflicts we have on these types of threads, that being our view of god isn't always what another persons idea of god is or might be like. So, when ones say a creator can't exist because he is too mean (as is he is portrayed in the O.T. in slaughtering countless lives) and a god of love would not do that, they are making valid points when they say they cannot believe the god of the bible actually exists......too many contradictions within itself.
: A person who today claims to have such experiences is invariably viewed as a lunatic.
Another good point I liked that's overlooked too much in the "bible believing" community here at JWD. Nobody ever discusses why god stopped verbally conversing and dealing with man as he did all throughout time, at least as recorded in the bible. Why did he? It couldn't be "when he gave us the bible" answer that is often given. He dealt with people without books before....why did he stop just because men recorded it all. Did god ever ask men to write a book called the Bible? He gave "his people" laws and reminded them to read those laws to one another......but did he command a book to be written for ALL of mankind?
Anyway, just wanted to comment on a point I've wanted to make long ago and this was a good time to do it since he brought it up. Actually, I had something other than this to say but when I started typing, I lost my whole point. *reminds self it's time to quit the damn weed and hits self in the eyebrow with an old brown service shoe*.
If I think of it, I'll just edit this one
Gumramblin
timetochange wrote:
: I take it then you are not a believer in the so called Big Bang theory.
I didn't say that. I personally don't strongly believe or disbelieve in much of anything when it comes to ultimate origins. The notion of a "macro-cosmic universe" that I mentioned allows that our own little universe might well have come into being as a sort of bubble within the larger macro-cosmic thing, perhaps along with a huge number of other universes that come into existence from time to time in whatever passes for "time" within the big one. Given what science knows at present, the Big Bang seems reasonable so far as it goes, but I don't think many scientists think it's anywhere near as far as can be gone.
For example, according to present physics, shortly after its ultimate origin, our universe was extremely tiny. At the so-called Planck time, 10^-44 seconds after the origin, it was a Planck length across (the Planck length is the speed of light multiplied by the Planck time). Nothing can be said about earlier times because of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, but I'm not going to get into that. At this point, entropy was at the maximum possible value (i.e., disorder was total) and there was a uniform "soup" of energy and fundamental particles such as quarks and electrons. The universe rapidly expanded and became what we know today. This raises the interesting question of what this little universe expanded into, and some physicists have proposed that this would be what I've called the "macro-cosmic universe". In this super-universe, little universes like our own could continuously expand to a huge size, and then contract down to an ultimately small size, bouncing back again into a new little universe.
All this is pure speculation, of course, but it's really no worse than speculating that some super-intelligent entity far more complex than our universe has "always existed" or never had a beginning.
AlanF
AlmostAthiest wrote: "But is "Does God really exist?" a topic for Bible study? I mean, doesn't the idea of studying the Bible (with a religious, let's-see-what-it-really-says intent) presuppose that the god it represents exists? That question is more philosophical than biblical. Once you have a personal decision on the likelihood of god's existence, THEN you're ready to study the Bible and see if he's behind it.Just my opinion."
MFM: VERY Good One! Altho, why study the Bible, if there IS no God? Why do you even DISCUSS it, AA? However, let's start with Genesis- and see how far we can go before the Moderator/Gods of this site ban me! ( I have a very Mad Personality! LOLOLO! )
I have read many "Creation" accounts of the ancient cultures: Babylonian, Sumerian, Accaidian, Ubaidians, and Egyptians- and they are easy to find, now, online. NONE but Genesis make any real sense, and only the Genesis account is backed by science (barring the church dogma of 24-hour days being the Creative Days). Your thoughts?
Frankiespeakin wrote
Yeah the bible God is much to big a person to speak up in defence or proof of his existance, yet he shows his pettiness in the bible by putting to death those that don't believe in him or break a petty law about the sabbath.
Eccl 8:11-13 11 When a crime is not punished quickly, people feel it is safe to do wrong. 12 But even though a person sins a hundred times and still lives a long time, I know that those who fear God will be better off. 13 The wicked will not prosper, for they do not fear God. Their days will never grow long like the evening shadows.
I dont know where you live but unless you are from another planet, this is exactly what the WISE King Solomn was speaking about. As ruler/head of your home, do you set standards that other feel are wrong or petty? But you have that right and no one can question your domain, yet what HE does always comes under scruity, always magnified and yet He can undo anything as far as damage done, we as petty little humans cannot. Who are we to check the hand of the Creator?
The big question is when? When will he finally speak up with his thunderous voice to silence all doubters? Dream on, or should we say have faith, it will happen, some day, when? nobody knows but in the mean time have faith.
John 12:27-30 27 “Now my soul is deeply troubled. Should I pray, ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But this is the very reason I came! 28 Father, bring glory to your name.” Then a voice spoke from heaven, saying, “I have already brought glory to my name, and I will do so again.” 29 When the crowd heard the voice, some thought it was thunder, while others declared an angel had spoken to him. 30 Then Jesus told them, “The voice was for your benefit, not mine.
I dont think it will be any different for those without faith today, people are stubborn, arrogant, and the lack of faith is evident since the beginning of time.
No wonder Christ asked when he comes back
"Will the Son of Man find the faith on the earth when he returns"?
Evidently NOT
Respectfully, abr
Martian, To some posters on this board, a man named "Richard Dawkins" is their GOD. You know he created the "Spagetti Monster" JUST FOR THEM!
Gumby commented on my point that "A person who today claims to have such experiences is invariably viewed as a lunatic." Let me expand on that a bit.
Likely, most ex-JWs don't view JW "anointed ones" as actually having had some sort of mystical experience like "the holy spirit" bearing witness to their "spirits" that they are specially chosen to go to heaven. Some of these so-called "anointed" really do claim to have had a mystical experience, such as walking down the street and suddenly having an overpowering feeling of being "washed clean by God" (this is not made up; one JW told me that this was how he knew he was "anointed"). Most people, Christians and non-Christians alike, view such claims by JWs as at best self-inflicted dreams and at worst the ravings of lunatics. I need not go into why.
In the same way, people who don't believe in gods of any sort generally view all people who claim to have had supernatural experiences as at best the victims of self-inflicted dreams or at worst as lunatics.
In the same way, most religious people view the religions of others as delusions and their gods as imaginary.
In the same way, atheists and strong agnostics view all religions as delusions and their gods as imaginary.
AlanF
HI Martian,
Without 2000 years of complicated apologetics the Biblical account of creation makes no more sense than any other primitive creation myth.
John 12:27-30 27 “Now my soul is deeply troubled. Should I pray, ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But this is the very reason I came! 28 Father, bring glory to your name.” Then a voice spoke from heaven , saying, “I have already brought glory to my name, and I will do so again.” 29 When the crowd heard the voice, some thought it was thunder , while others declared an angel had spoken to him. 30 Then Jesus told them, “The voice was for your benefit, not mine.
I dont think it will be any different for those without faith today, people are stubborn, arrogant, and the lack of faith is evident since the beginning of time.
No wonder Christ asked when he comes back
"Will the Son of Man find the faith on the earth when he returns"?
Evidently NOT
Is god truly so incompetent?
When I talk nobody mistakes my voice for thunder. Are you saying that god is only capable of talking to people who ALREADY believe in him?
That's pretty lame. But cool in a way for me. By being an atheist I nullify gods powers even if he does exist.
If he's that lame, maybe he's incapable of sending me to hell either.
Maybe god is like ouija boards, neither of them are capable of working around skeptics.
Lore - of the God Has No Power Over Me class.
MFM
This is not Bible study. JWs think that talking about God, faith or religion is Bible study. But, Bible study requires us to study the Bible. So what book, chapter and verse are we starting with?
Gumby
This is where we bump heads in our conflicts we have on these types of threads, that being our view of god isn't always what another persons idea of god is or might be like. So, when ones say a creator can't exist because he is too mean (as is he is portrayed in the O.T. in slaughtering countless lives) and a god of love would not do that, they are making valid points when they say they cannot believe the god of the bible actually exists......too many contradictions within itself.
As I have said many times before, We can only judge God's character as he is seen in Jesus Christ. How or why would you expect to judge the Father (revealed in the O.T.) who is above the Law, by that very law (which is intended for man)?
