Saviours of the world? (page 2)

Junction-Guy

Do any of these other figures still have followers?

fullofdoubtnow

Do any of these other figures still have followers?

Yes.

I'd say there were a few million Buddhists around, wouldn't you?

Chrishna is the Hindu god Vishnu in human form. There are plenty of Hindus around today

Zoroaster still has followers, though not as many as Buddha, obviuosly.

There may be more, I'll check and post later.

Linda,

Not all Jesus' stories are unique, but this list was obviously written by someone who accepts whatever he/she is told about christianity so they can disprove it. There are relevant criticisms of Jesus, but this page is not one of them.

For example, Buddha:
He was NOT born on December 25th, but actually April 8th, according to Buddhist beliefs.
Buddhists do not believe he had a bodily resurrection.

Although I'll admit to knowing little about the other 'Messiahs' from your link, the inaccuracies in the Buddha story make me highly sceptical of the rest of the list.

Narkissos

eclipse,

Imo, there was no one consistent concept of Messiah in Judaism at the time ascribed to Jesus. The word was popular but covered wildly different notions, notably, either a Davidic king or a Zadoqite high priest; other historical/heavenly figures such as Enoch, Melchizedeq, Moses, Elijah were expected to play a role at the end of "this age" but were not called "messiah(s)". Some segments of Palestinian (e.g. the Sadducees) or diaspora Hellenistic (e.g. Philo) Judaism had little or no eschatological interest and consequently had no room for a "messiah" or any similar figure. Later rabbinical-Jewish messianism was mostly constructed on a Pharisaic basis and against Christian messianism (akaChristology).

The relevant point to this thread is that construing other, especially earlier, religious figures as "messiahs" is both an anachronism and an ethnocentrical delusion. We actually describe completely different belief systems according to a late Jewish and Christian pattern, which is certainly not the best way to understand them or the role which their mythological figures and/or historical founders play in their respective conceptual frame.

There are some interesting inter-cultural parallelisms, though. One I find fascinating, as regards the notion of "messiah" = "Christos" = "anointed," is that the only actual "anointing" of Jesus as recorded in the four canonical Gospels (although they avoid the verb khriô at this point)is related to his death and done by a woman (or women), which lacks OT parallels but is strongly reminiscent of the Isis/Osiris myth. Such limited, fragmentary, correspondences, can be found. Myths can have many mythemes in common but they are no less unique and different from each other.

eclipse

The relevant point to this thread is that construing other, especially earlier, religious figures as "messiahs" is both an anachronism and an ethnocentrical delusion. We actually describe completely different belief systems according to a late Jewish and Christian pattern, which is certainly not the best way to understand them or the role which their mythological figures and/or historical founders play in their respective conceptual frame.

Thank you so much Narkissos for pointing this out...I stand corrected. Always willing to learn and be corrected by those who have much more knowledge than I could ever cram into this small brain of mine!

To those who don't know what certain terms meant, and I didn't, so I looked them up.

a·nach·ro·nism

1.	something or someone that is not in its correct historical or chronological time, esp. a thing or person that belongs to an earlier time: The sword is an anachronism in modern warfare.

2.

an error in chronology in which a person, object, event, etc., is assigned a date or period other than the correct one: To assign Michelangelo to the 14th century is an anachronism.

eth·no·cen·trism

1.	Sociology . the belief in the inherent superiority of one's own ethnic group or culture.

2.	a tendency to view alien groups or cultures from the perspective of one's own.

poppers

That was the first time I've EVER heard of Buddha being born of a virgin, walking on water, performing "miracles", and having a bodily ressurection. After enlightenment was realized he was asked if he was a "god" - no, he said; was he a saint? - no, he said. "Then what are you?" and he answered "I am awake." He never claimed to be anything out of the ordinary, and devoted his life to pointing to others how they too could awaken to their true nature. I'm with Zico on this and question just how accurate other things are in that link.

Leolaia

These lists appear on the board from time to time, which imho greatly exaggerate the parallels between the Christian Jesus and deities from other ANE and Asian religions. It seems that quite a few of these take features from Christianity and attribute them to these other religions, producing a parallel that doesn't exist in reality. Although I'm not entirely certain since I am not a student of Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, and the Mediterranean mystery cults, I strongly suspect that this is the case for many of the parallels in the lists, which also omit details that mitigate against the parallels. When I see lists like these, I always want to know, "What is the ancient source for this claim? What is the evidence supporting that claim?" The situation is also complicated by the fact that our knowledge of ancient -- especially secret -- cults is fragmentary and incomplete. Some scholars, especially those in the 19th century, tried to fill in the gaps by appealing to Christian models, on the assumption that these attest features of liturgy/rites/etc. that were not preserved. Bruce Metzger points out that there is a danger of circularity when these sources are, in turn, cited as evidence of non-Christian parallels:

"Some of the supposed parallels are the result of the modern scholar's amalgamation of quite heterogenous elements drawn from various sources. As Schweitzer pointed out, 'Almost all the popular writings fall into this kind of inaccuracy. They manufacture out of the various fragments of information a kind of universal Mystery-religion which never actually existed, least of all in Paul's day.' Even reputable scholars have succumbed to the temptation to be more precise than the existing state of information will permit. Commenting on this temptation, Edwyn R. Bevan says caustically: 'Of course if one writes an imaginary description of the Orphic mysteries, as Loisy [Alfred Loisy, 1857-1940], for instance, does, filling in the large gaps in the picture left by our data from the Christian eucharist, one produces something very impressive. On this plan, you first in the Christian elements, and then are staggered to find them there.' It goes without saying that alleged parallels which are discovered by pursuing such methodology evaporate when they are confronted with the original texts. In a word, one must beware of what have been called 'parallels made plausible by selective description.' " (Metzger, "Considerations of Methodology in the Study of Mystery Religions and Early Christianity," Harvard Theological Review, Vol. 48, No. 1, p. 9)

For some examples of possibly dubious parallels which seem to result from a modern assimilation to Christian traditions:

Buddha was born of the virgin Maya who was known as the ‘Queen of Heaven’ on December 25 th .

What ancient source points to Buddha's birthday as on December 25th? Throughout the Buddhist world, the birthday (Vaishakha) is instead observed in the second month of the Hindu lunar calendar, i.e. roughly equivalent to May. In fact, the name of the celebration is taken from the month's name.

Horus was born of the virgin Isis-Meri on December 25 th. Isis-Meri is also known as Mata-Meri or Mother Mary.

What ancient source claims that Horus was born on December 25th? The claim seems to go back only to Gerald Massay (1828-1927) and all ancient sources I know of place the birthday of Horus in the five epagomenal days at the end of the year, particularly, the second epagomenal day (cf. Harhotpe Documents from the Middle Kingdom, Wb. III p. 430.3, Amenhotep III Palace Jar Label 143A, Papyrus Leiden I 346, Cairo Calendar JdE 86637, Kom Ombo Festival Calendar, Esna Calendar, Plutarch, De Iside et Osiride 12 355E-F). That would be a date sometime in the middle of July.

I am equally skeptical of the claim that Isis was called "Isis-Meri" (a name that is supposed to recall "Mary", as "Isis-Meri" is claimed be supposedly equivalent to "Mother Mary"). This name (or variations thereof) is unknown in all of the academic literature available via Google Scholar, whereas it appears only on lay websites devoted to the Da Vinci Code or dependent on Acharya S.'s book. In Egyptian mry means "beloved of", i.e. mry-M;t "Beloved of Maat", mry-Imn "Beloved of Amun," mry-Pth "Beloved of Ptah", etc. Notice that these regularly have mry come before the name, not after it. My suspicion is that "Isis-Meri" is a misunderstanding of a pair of epithets pertaining to Horus, e.g. Hr s; Ist mry-Imn "Horus, son of Isis, beloved of Amun" (attested as a throne name of Horsiese I), which has the sequence Ist mry (= Isis mry), but mry pertains to Horus not Isis tho it follows the name "Isis".

And was Isis really a "virgin" goddess, or specifically, a virgin when she gave birth to Horus? This claim (which seems to go back at least to Madam Blavatsky, cf. her book Isis Unveiled, 1877, p. 10, and which is repeated by Alvin Kuhn, a twentieth-century follower of Blavatsky) also seems to be false. Isis was a fertility and divine mother goddess, particularly after her assimilation to Hathor, depicted as the mother of Horus and giver of milk. But I have not seen any claim that she was a virgin when Horus was born (rather, Osiris was believed to be Horus' father), and Ward Gasque at least claims that when asked about Isis as a virgin mother, ten leading Egyptologists stated that no evidence exists to this effect.

Mithra was born to a virgin on December 25 th and in a cave or manger; also announced by a star and three wise men.

The situation with Mithra is complex because this deity differed considerably between the Eastern (Persian) version and the later Western (Roman) version, and later Mithraism is similarly thought to differ considerably from the early Persian/Seleucid-era cult. See the discussion here. What is presented in this sentence is an (artificial) conflation of traditions from different places and times, with possibly additional un-Mithraic features. It was in the third and fourth century AD Roman Sol Invictus cult that the date December 25th was associated with solar deities like Mithra; there is no earlier evidence of this tradition. It was also in Roman Mithraism that Mithra was believed to have been born by the earth itself (i.e. from rock, from an underground cavern as a womb). The cave was NOT a manger in Mithraism, I would like to see an ancient source for this claim (which seems to improve the parallel by importing the "manger" from Christian tradition). This cave also seems to have more to do with the rebirth of Mithras as a rising god (cf. the sun rising seemingly from the earth each day). It was in the Eastern Mithra cult that a virgin (the water goddess Anahita, Greek Anaitis, identified by Strabo as the Greek virgin goddess Artemis) was (probably) desginated as the mother of Mithra, but this would not have been a virgin birth since Mithra was probably fathered by Ahura (hence, the triad of Ahura, Anahita, and Mithra in some inscriptions). As far as the birth being announced by a star and three wise men, I certainly would like to see some ancient evidence for this, as I see no evidence of these per se, and these look suspiciously like another circular assimilation to what is found in Christianity.

Unfortunately, this list of parallels omits the Persian "messianic" hero Soshyant who poses a much closer parallel to the Jesus of the NT (at least in eschatological terms).

Chrishna’s most beloved disciple was known as Arjuna or Ar-jouan (John.)

This is just a strained attempt to find a phonetic similarity between the name Arjuna and the name John. To improve the similarity, the name is respelled "Ar-jouan", a spelling that seems to only exist in a few websites that attempt to link the name to "John". Otherwise, what connection is there? Was John the Baptist or John, the Beloved Disciple, an archer?

In Egyptian myth, Anup or Aan (John) the Baptiser also baptised Horus, and in Christian myth John baptised Jesus. Both Anup and John the Baptist were decapitated.

Another strained attempt to link "John" to another pagan name. The jackel-headed Anup/Anubis is not spelled "Aan" (other spellings in the literature include Anpu, Anupu, Anbu, Wip, Ienpw, Inepu, Yinepu, Inpu, and Inpw, every one including the bilabial consonant), which looks like another assimilation to "John". He was the god of embalming the dead, and joins with Horus to judge the dead in the scales of justice, and thus shows no real similarity to John the Baptist as far as I know. Baptism is not associated with Anubis, nor is he called "Anup the Baptizer" (which again looks like an assimilation to John the Baptist). Perhaps the author has exaggerated "embalming" into a sort of "baptism", but it is Osiris that Anubis embalmed in the underworld, so the claim that Anubis "baptized" Horus must depend on a late identification between Horus and Osiris, and it is an open question what role Anubis has in the later mythology. And was Anubis decapitated? What is the documentation for this? This looks questionable as well, as I have seen nothing of the sort in the academic literature.
Horus had twelve disciples like Christ and Mithra.

Really? Who?

Horus was crucified, buried in a tomb and then resurrected.

Horus crucified? Where is that from? Osiris, to whom Horus was later identified, was killed by Seth by being dismembered into 14 pieces and scattered throughout the land, before the body parts were reassembled by Isis. Via the conflation of Horus and Osiris, it is Horus that represents the rising form of dead Osiris.

This goddess or ‘Queen of Heaven’ is known as Isis, Astarte, Asherah, Marratu, Marah, Mariham. In fact the Semites knew her as Mari-El or Mary God or indeed shining Mary.

Astarte and Asherah were completely different goddesses. Marratu was the world-ocean in Babylonian cosmology -- what does that have to do with anything, other than a superficial similarity with "Mary". Mariham is the gnostic spelling of "Mary" (< Miriam) and is not an independent ANE goddess, as suggested here. I am pretty sure "Mari-El" is a pure invention of the author, as I have seen nothing like it in ANE literature. This whole sentence is gibberish.
Chrishna was crucified between two thieves on a tree, then rose from the dead and ascended to heaven
Again....what is the source for this? The actual myth is that Krishna was shot in the foot by a hunter's arrow, being mistaken for a deer (Mahabharata).

The webpage linked above also has many other questionable claims and specious etymologies, such as Horus raising "El-Osiris" or "El-Azar-us" from the dead, Horus being called the KRST or "Christ", the Hindu word "Kris" (= Krishna) meaning "sun", Krishna being known as "Jezeus" (meaning "pure essence"), etc. Even the spelling of Krishna as "Chrisna" seems to be aimed at assimilating the name to "Christ".

Unfortunately, such fringe stuff is taken seriously and widely posted on internet message boards, but one should be very skeptical -- especially when no sources are cited. There is already enough evidence of ANE influence on Jewish/Christian traditions without having to resort to making up too-good-to-be-true parallels.

nvrgnbk

"Then what are you?" and he answered "I am awake."

Thank you poppers!

Leolaia

I'm bumping this because it took a fair amount of time to put that post together and the points deserve to be aired again.

Saviours of the world?

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