Arguments against Disfellowshipping

by TheListener 37 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Gill

  I know of a 'dissenter' who was disfellowshipped and then killed herself two weeks later as she lost all her family and friends.

  I was about ten years old at the time and I remember an elder coming round to see my father with the letter she had written that had got her disfellowshipped.

  What sticks in my mind is my parents discussing the letter later on and it turned out that the other elders and my parents said that everything she had written in that letter was correct but she still had to be disfellowshipped for what she said.

  Thirty two years on, I remember that case and the one thing I learnt from it which kept me in 'da troof' for nearlyanother thirty years, and that was to be careful of what you say, because the Watchtower Society can, indirectly kill you!

  Disfellowshipping is evil!

  I'd like to compare a list of child molesters who were disfellowshipped and 'dissenters' or 'apostates' who have been disfellowshipped. I have a feeling which one will be the long list and it certainly won't be the child molesters.
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  sammielee24

  Sorry..but sometimes I feel physically sick listening to all the definitions of bad association, sinning and who gets in and has the right to stay in...it's pathetic.

  A person who commits adultery once in his/her lifetime is not necessarily bad association - most especially when he/she comes forward and confesses right away and is df'd. This infers guilt, shame and a desire for punishment and repentence. The person sitting in the KH that never comes forward for his/her wrongdoings but studies intensely and goes out in service or pioneers, while at the same time, watches porn online, drinks in his house and smokes cigars with the drapes drawn, perhaps abuses his/her family and perhaps even abuses little kids - well - that might be not just bad association but worse association.

  I believe that the WTS defrauds all of it's followers by claiming to be God. I believe they have no right to demand baptism as a rule of membership because that baptism will be used as a tool for punishment. If this is like a membership club where you can through the members out for violating your rules - then the membership should make sure that they follow the laws which disallow minors from joining. The drinking age is 21 - make baptism 21 years of age. The bible has been interpreted by the WTS for it's own use and to back up it's own set of rules - does this make it right? Does the golf club have the right if I break the rules and get ousted, to visit with my family and tell them to bury me? I think not. They would be sued in a court of law. The WTS should be treated the same way in their shunning policies. sammieswife.
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  emptywords

  I was looked down on for still keeping in contact with my x husband, (never a witness, but never opposed and always treated JW with respect and hostpitality) though he commited adultry and fell in love with the other women, we still remained friends and after 20yrs he still cares enough to how I'm going, there was a lot of bitterness and I did lose a lot, but I know he never set out to hurt me and did all he could to help me.

  The elders had me playing detective to prove the adultry and cost me all sorts money, one bethelite brother in the congo told me to hire a private dectective, not one sheperding call, just, you must do this, must not do that, I was sick through the whole thing, my mother had just died, so much more to this, wont' bore you, point is they can't understand how I could possibly have anything to do with this evil worldly man........my best friend who has never been a witness we kept in contact was the biggest help of all through my years of depression and lonliness, yet I am warned not to go out with her.They are such hypocrites, I'm glad I never listened to them and kept in contact with those that who they say are worldly people and therefore marked for execution at arma, there and other so called evil worldly people have been a support like I have only seen rarely in the troof.

  When one has problems in the troof, you deserve it some how, either spiritual sick, or not doing enough in the ministry, or doing something wrong, therefore Jehovah is allowing the punishement.

  There are some loving and caring witnesses, but as put on here in another thread, if I was to say one thing about the society that was not in agreement, they would ignore me, or go to an elder and say something. I would love to meet someone from my congregation that feels the same, but I don't trust anyone to try and find out.
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  bigdreaux

  isaiah 66:5
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  LiveLife

  Listener,

  My friend, I think it would be much easier to make a clear Scriptural case against specifc grounds for JW disfellowshipping.

  For instance: Where is there any Scriptural support for disfellowshipping on the grounds of not heeding the counsel of elders, or on the grounds of disrespecting "Jehovah's arrangement", or on the grounds of failure to repent of conduct that is Scripturally left up to the conscience of the individual?

  The only instance in the Bible where Paul recommends something even remotely similar to what Jehovah's Witnesses call disfellowshipping the man in question was flagrantly carrying on behavior that Paul described as shameful even for the nations; Jerry Springer type shizzny. In the rest of the Bible, only rejecting the Christ as having come in the flesh and having been resurrected is ever used as grounds for putting someone outside the 1st Century Church. Paul didn't even recommend this step be taken against those superfine apostles who were actively trying to get people to ignore what Paul was teaching.

  When it comes to matters of conscience, it is easy to show that no human authority has any business doing anything beyond friendly and loving counsel. This plainly includes the celebration of certain days. It also plainly includes associations and visiting of temples and synagogues of religions other than Christianity (Paul and others spent much time in Jewish temples and synagogues). The decision in such matters is left between the individual and God, who never errs in judgments and is conditional in the enforcing of rules; not between an individual and a human organization full of supercilious human judges who use a rule book including such toilsome specificity of errors it would put the Talmud to shame. "Did you see her breast? Did you touch it? For how long? Did you kiss it? [etc. ad nauseum]"

  I agree with Narkissos that the easiest way to Scripturally address the practice itself is through the secrecy angle but, I believe, initially taking on the meddlesome and intrusive nature of the Investigative Committees and Judicial Committees is somewhat easier still. They pry into many things that are well beyond none of their concern.

  Live Life
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  flipper

  Mr. Flipper here. Gill's point earlier about there being a longer list of people disfellowshipped for alleged "apostasy" than those kicked out for child abuse is a very valid point. This cult is so ironic that it goes to extreme lengths to protect members guilty of child abuse, especially if that person has ties to someone in authority or if revealing the abusers would make a lot of dominoes fall or house of cards crumble. There are reasons some people get disfellowshipped, and reasons why others get away scott free with their evil conduct. That alone is reason enough for someone to make sure this secret database file they have of alledgedly,"27,000 molesters " should be made public. Put them all in a lineup against a wall, and let us judge them P.S. Argument against disfellowshipping? It's unjust and flawed!
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  TheListener

  Thanks everybody. All of your comments proved helpful.

  LiveLife - It's good to see you back; I've missed your viewpoint
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  Sarah Smiles

  I tracked the J.W. s reasoning down. In 1 Corith a man is living with his father's wife. O.T. that would be a sin to take your father's wife. So Paul said that they should not eat with him, to put him away. A year later in 2 Corith (which is not Paul's second letter but perhaps his third or fourth." he pleas with the congregation to let the person back or it would be the congregation fault if he stumbles.(Most cases J.W. are reinstated within a year)

  I believe the test is on how the congregation should forgive! it is a must!

  I believe some of Paul's letters are his own thoughts and not from God and that is a hard one.

  I wonder if the congregations would eat together, love feast! Did Paul mean that after the congregations went home that they were not suppose to speak to the man?

  Dfing could be something that was started with Paul and the first congregations, and it might not have anything to do with modern day.

  Some were trying to get away from the law and did not know how far they could go. Since we are no longer under the law adn we are under Christ new law of love, let's commit unlawful sins.

  Most these people knew what was wrong under the law, but how about under Christ law?
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  Sarah Smiles

  Some one posted about bad association! If a J.W. would take the time to read this in other bibles it is corrupt conversation and it has something to do with new christains questioned if Jesus was raised up. Why? because some where standing around who have not heard yet!non christains.

  The bad association has something to do with talking against Jesus resurrection,and some were starting to doubt.

  The JW use this scripture the wrong way! I mean if one is talking about Jesus the wrong way then you can say bad association but if someone is smoking then you could not use bad association.
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  TheListener

  Sarah I would add the following to your thoughts:

  1. Many assume that the man in 1 Cor. is the same as the man in 2 Cor.

  - Some argue that Paul is referring to himself in 2 Cor.

  2. The majority considered him disfellowshipped but not ALL

  - Why is this so? The scriptures are silent. Evidently each individual had to make their own decision on how to treat this individual (evidently, hehehehe).