LOOKING FOR THE TRUTH - I AM NEW HERE

by erik 46 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  erik

  Hi, my name is Erik. This is my first posting. I was a witness from the age of 2-18. I was baptized in 1990 as a Jehovah's Witness. In 1992, there were many things going on in my parents' lives and for whatever reason they stopped going to the meetings. Since they stopped going, I stopped going, partly because I was raised in the religion by my parents, and now they were no longer going. Also, I had never experienced the "world" so to speak, no dating, no parties, no football team, etc. We were to be no part of this world.

  Now to present day...
  Nine years later, I am now engaged. Happy times, right?....WRONG! September 11th came and rocked both my fiance's and my own life as well as the rest of the world. I remember being at work and watching those towers crumble and horrible aftermath that occurred. As I watched, I asked myself..is this Armaggedon or related to it! FEAR. Immediately, I called home and of course, my mom and dad were also scared. They were thinking the same thing. This was a cataylst for my mom and dad going back to the kingdom hall, and me too. I was thinking immediately, this is it! I need to go back to the true religion. Even when I was not going to the meetings, I felt as though they were the one religion that really stuck to the Bible. They are truly no part of this wicked world that Satan is in control of according to the Bible.

  Immediately I started trying to preach to my fiance about the witnesses and their beliefs. I wanted to convince her that this was the true religion. Needless to say, this past month has been the most difficult period of my entire life. We were supposed to planning for a joyous wedding. Instead, we are arguing back and forth about religion. I was scared about her's and my eternal salvation. Every day since that day, we have been through every gut-wrenching emotion you can imagine. We were supposed to be married in three months and now have been talking about possible breaking up. I have never been so emotionally, mentally, and physically drained. I cannot eat, sleep, or concentrate on anything but this. The pain is unexplainable.

  But, something happened and my fiance asked me to question my religion. And, I agreed. Everyone knows that it is not good for a witness to read apostate literature. They are speaking against God's organization here on earth. Needless to say, my conscience really bothered me and it still does. But, if one does not challenge his beliefs, how can one truly believe? I informed my brother, who is a JW and has never left, of what I was doing. He said, that was fine. He did say not to believe everything I read on the internet. He was right, not everything on the internet is true about the witnesses, this I know. For example, I personally have challenged some of the beliefs, when I was going to the meetings, and I was not treated with any ill will from elders and I was not disfellowshipped. Also, when I stopped going to the meetings, those witnesses that I knew who were still going to the meetings, continued to treat me in a nice manner.

  This search of mine led me to some interesting finds. One in particular is the book of Ray Franz, Crisis of Conscience. First of all, I have questions as to whether he was ever really one of the annointed. In it he points out a lot of things that have happened in the religion since its inception in the 1870s by Charles T. Russell. Things such as the prophesying of the end of the system of things in 1914 and 1918, and the coming of the prophets in 1925, and the building of a home in San Diego to house these prophets upon their return. Alright, so I have found some questionable things about the witnesses such as the NGO thing, and some changes as far as blood fractions. The witnesses will tell you that they have made mistakes, but will point to Proverbs 4:18, "but the path of the righteous one is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established."

  For as many questions as I have found about the religion, I still have many thoughts that make me feel as though the Jehovah Witnesses have the right religion. For example, unlike many of Christendom's religions, they do not celebrate Pagan holidays such as Christmas, Halloween, and Easter. They remain no part of Satan's world. This brings me to a quote that I read recently of a post by Leander. He mentioned that he cannot ignore the fact that the organization is growing while others are declining. I have seen that there has not really been a growth. In the time of the end, Satan will be trying harder than ever to pull God's people away. I get worried when I see something like what recently happened on September 11th. I see countries pulling together for a common goal of "peace and security" - reference President Bush's speech following the attacks. Everyone saw what happened to the economy, ie stock market, etc... So, obviously, I see these things and I get scared. I think that I need to go back.

  I have talked to many people who have left the religion and started their own websites giving information against the Jehovah Witness religion. And, I have talked to a baptist minister, born-again minister, etc...Someone pointed out that you don’t need an organization, they pointed to Acts 2:38-41 where Peter pointed out that all that is needed is to repent and be baptized I the name of Jesus Christ for forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the free gift of the holy spirit. However, if you keep reading, in verse 44, it says all those who become believers were together in having all things in common. This is unlike most every other religion, where you see today that there are various sects that separate from the core belief of the religion. You do not see this with the witnesses. The Bible also mentions that broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, cramped and narrow is the road leading to eternal life and few are the ones finding it. It is difficult to remain the follower of Jehovah, it is a strict religion, perhaps that’s why many leave…

  I ask for any replies that can help me. As I am an emotional wreck right now, please help.

  1. Why was there a change in definition of “generation”? Is it new light or is it that those who were alive in 1914 are passing away fast, so there is a necessity to change the view?

  2. In Revelations, it says that 144,000 are Jewish, Men, perfect, and virgins. Are the apostles included in the 144,000? Who is really part of this number? Because I don’t think all the apostles were jewish, or maybe they were...but they all went to heaven…

  3. The issue of the annointed. They know they are going to heaven, no question in their minds, they are Jehovah Witnesses.

  4. The witnesses will point out they are no part of this world. You see churches throughout America hanging the flag throughout the churches…are they aligning themselves with the wild beast?

  5. Are these times the beginning of a worldwide quest for “peace and security.”

  6. Act 2:44 “that those who became believers were together in having all things in common.” I believe there are no changing of beliefs when you go from congregation to congregation within the Jehovah Witnesses vs other religions.

  7. 607 B.C.E. vs 586/587 B.C.E.: Bible history vs. secular history? I have received a copy of Gentile Times Reconsidered, but as of yet I have not had time to read it.

  8. Watchtower teaching on Revelation’s wild beast. It seems to make sense to me, but are there any other interpretations of what this wild beast stands for?

  9. As far as people going to heaven or people being resurrected on paradise earth, some will say that the 144,000 and the Great Crowd both go to heaven. However, Jesus resurrected Lazarus (John 11) back here to Earth. If when you die you go to heaven, why would Jesus resurrect back Lazarus back here on Earth?

  10. I have heard some arguments that organization is not necessary to find salvation. But, throughout the Bible, in particular, Acts 2:46, “day after day they were in constant attendance at the temple with one accord”, it seems as though there was an organization among those first century christians.

  11. When does a fraction of a fraction of a fraction become blood?

  12. Finally, holidays. This is a big question. If Christendom knows that Christmas as well as other holidays are pagan, why are they celebrating them? If there are any other religions other than Jehovah’s Witnesses that are Christian that do not celebrate the pagan holidays, what are they?
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  wannahelp

  Hi Erik,

  Welcome to the board..

  I assume you have Read Ray Franz' book, Crisis of Conscience, right?

  If so, he pointed out alot of stuff in that book that you need to take a good hard look at (remove the fear, first and foremost)..

  The JW's claim to be god's earthly channel of communications, right? That would mean that they have claimed to have spoken in God's name? Right? This being true, they have made prophetic errors in god's name. Check the bible, and you will see what God himself said of prphets that speak in his name:

  -- Revised Standard Version --

  Deuteronomy 18:20 - But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.'

  Deuteronomy 18:22 - when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of him.

  Reread Crisis of Conscience and then cross reference all the statements Ray points out in his book with the actual literature from the organization.. You'll see that Ray is quoting directly from their literature..

  You'll also see that the organization on many occasions has stated infatically that they are god's channel, only they can speak for god, etc.. etc.. etc..

  Now, look at their prophecies they have made over the years.. How many of them have come true? NONE!

  Then, to address your fear I say this (From the inspired word of GOD himself):

  Deuteronomy 18:22 - when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of him.

  Erik: "You need not be afraid of him" (or them)

  I'm sure others will have even more potent stuff to point out to you, but here is some food for thought...
• 

  AlanF

  You're certainly in a difficult position. As a long-time critic of the Society, it's evident to me that you need to do a lot more research to determine how you'll view the JW religion. In the meantime I'll take a stab at some answers:

  : 1. Why was there a change in definition of “generation”? Is it new light or is it that those who were alive in 1914 are passing away fast, so there is a necessity to change the view?

  The latter. Since the Society has taught for decades that "the generation of 1914" would not pass away until "the end" comes, and a "generation" is normally thought of as around 33 years, and certainly not more than a typical human lifetime of 80 years, and 80 years from 1914 gets you to 1994, and by 1995 the year 1994 had passed without incident, it is evident that in order to retain the 1914 doctrine the Society had to stretch the meaning of "generation" and make it openended.

  : 2. In Revelations, it says that 144,000 are Jewish, Men, perfect, and virgins. Are the apostles included in the 144,000? Who is really part of this number? Because I don’t think all the apostles were jewish, or maybe they were...but they all went to heaven…

  This is a purely scriptural question and therefore has as many answers as there are opinions.

  : 3. The issue of the annointed. They know they are going to heaven, no question in their minds, they are Jehovah Witnesses.

  What is your question?

  : 4. The witnesses will point out they are no part of this world. You see churches throughout America hanging the flag throughout the churches…are they aligning themselves with the wild beast?

  Again this is purely a question of interpretation of the wild writings in Revelation. How do you know what "the wild beast" really is? Have Watchtower interpretations proved reliable? Not hardly. Revelation is about as open to interpretation as are the prophecies of Nostradamus.

  : 5. Are these times the beginning of a worldwide quest for “peace and security.”

  Are these times the beginning of pangs of distress that include a marked increase in earthquakes, war, famine and pestilence? Are such things "signs" of anything, any more than observing that the grass is green, the sky is blue and young men lust after young women are signs of anything?

  : 6. Act 2:44 “that those who became believers were together in having all things in common.” I believe there are no changing of beliefs when you go from congregation to congregation within the Jehovah Witnesses vs other religions.

  This scripture is talking about a form of communism. Is that what Jehovah's Witnesses practice? How about any other religion? Is that what is demanded of true Christians?

  : 7. 607 B.C.E. vs 586/587 B.C.E.: Bible history vs. secular history? I have received a copy of Gentile Times Reconsidered, but as of yet I have not had time to read it.

  Read it -- you'll be convinced. In the meantime carefully read 2 Chronicles 36:20 and Jeremiah 25:12. Then answer the following question: In what year did the Jews cease being servants to the king of Babylon? Once you've done that, we'll continue.

  : 8. Watchtower teaching on Revelation’s wild beast. It seems to make sense to me, but are there any other interpretations of what this wild beast stands for?

  See above.

  : 9. As far as people going to heaven or people being resurrected on paradise earth, some will say that the 144,000 and the Great Crowd both go to heaven. However, Jesus resurrected Lazarus (John 11) back here to Earth. If when you die you go to heaven, why would Jesus resurrect back Lazarus back here on Earth?

  To me this is like asking how many angels can sit on the head of a pin? No one has direct communication with the authors of the Bible, therefore no one can answer for sure what they intended.

  : 10. I have heard some arguments that organization is not necessary to find salvation. But, throughout the Bible, in particular, Acts 2:46, “day after day they were in constant attendance at the temple with one accord”, it seems as though there was an organization among those first century christians.

  Even according to the Bible accounts, an organization was never necessary to worship God. What organization did Abel belong to? How about Noah? How about Abraham? How about Job?

  : 11. When does a fraction of a fraction of a fraction become blood?

  Write the Society. You'll find that they can't tell you. And since the Bible certainly says nothing about this, the JW claims about blood fractions are obviously nothing more than the usual fallible musings of selfish men who have a tradition to uphold.

  : 12. Finally, holidays. This is a big question. If Christendom knows that Christmas as well as other holidays are pagan, why are they celebrating them? If there are any other religions other than Jehovah’s Witnesses that are Christian that do not celebrate the pagan holidays, what are they?

  Most holidays are not pagan. They are secular. Can you explain why, for example, American JWs are forbidden from celebrating Thanksgiving Day? No, you can't, because it is entirely rooted in American Christian tradition. Furthermore, even a holiday like Christmas might have had pagan roots, but so what? So does the practice of wearing wedding rings. Do JWs object to that? Do you? Not likely. Why the inconsistency?

  The bottom line for most ex-JWs who really think about it is this: they are no longer JWs because they know for certain that the leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses do not hesitate to lie to them or anyone else they deem necessary to further their "work". God does not tolerate incorrigible liars as his spokesmen, does he? How then, can JWs claim to be God's representatives, and to speak in his name to the world? For a scriptural answer, read Job 13:7-12.

  AlanF
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  Yerusalyim

  Erik,

  Welcome to the board dude, I think you'll get lots of in put. You're one of the reasons we're here. Stick around! To answer some, but not all your questions...
  1. The definition of "generation" has been changed several times, it's more of a flickering light than "new light" but yes, it was changed because soon all those who were around in 1914 will be dead.

  2. 144,000 perhaps a symbolic number, perhaps not, but for sure all Jewish if literal. Not defiled with woman (the idoltarous practices of Jews who apostize perhaps?

  3. Not only are the 144,000 annointed going to heaven, ALL CHRISTIANS ARE. Jesus did NOT preach two classes of Christian. He called the apostles "little flock" because they were a small group. The "Other Sheep" Jesus spoke of were the Gentiles who were to come to beleive, and notice that Jesus says the two become ONE FLOCK. Thus there are only Christians, not an annointed class and an unannointed class. Why don't all partake of the Eblems of the Memorial if Jesus said "take this ALL OF YOU, and Eat it" Better question, why have a memorial if Jesus returned in 1914, because Jesus said, "Keep doing this until I come"

  4. By being "No Part of this World" Jesus meant not to adapt the morals and values of the World. He didn NOT mean to forfeit invovlement where we can work for good. To follow the JW doctrine to it's logical conclusion, no one should be a teacher or postal worker, or have a corporate job.

  5. The world has been seeking Peace and Security for 5000 years or longer.

  6. All things in common as in they lived in a commune, and there are several religions that can boast of having the same teachings in every church, Catholics, Orthodox, and the like to name a few.

  7 Pass for now.

  8. Pass for now.

  9. Lazarus died before Jesus death and resurrection and was in the Limbo of the Fathers. Lazarus was also Resurrected and would die again, the resurrection we receive after death is ETERNAL. The Great Crowd is indeed in heaven. Revelations tells of it, also, The distinction between heaven and earth will disappear as God will dwell with us and be our light.

  10. There was organization, but it looked NOTHING like the Governing Body or Jehovah's Witnesses in General.

  11. Others can handle this better than I save to say, the restriction was on EATING blood, not transfusions. See what the JW's did with transplants.

  12. Paul says, "Some consider one day more important than others, others consider all days the same...whatever you do do it unto the Lord. Erik, even The Memorial at it's root is of Pagan origin. God wants us to celebrate Him in our lives. That's why he gave the Jews so many feasts and holidays. Why would he suddenly change that. If Christmas is Celebrated unto God, and His honor, and Easter the same, HOW CAN IT BE WRONG?

  Food for thought.

  Yerusalyim

  YERUSALYIM
  "Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
  [Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]
• 

  larc

  erik,

  I would suggest that you try to think of the time frame involved in the JW history. For example, when were your grand parents born? I assume it was long after Russell started predicting the end of the old. In 1879, 1914 was 25 years away which seemed like a long time. The religion is over 120 years old. That is a loooooog time to be saying that the end of the world will be "any day now." Over those years, mankind has faced many traumas and each one was used by WT leadership to wip the membership into a frenzy. This situation is no different and will end up the same way. The world will survive and go on. More Witnesses will die of old age, many will be pennyless because they never felt a need to plan for retirement.

  My mother's four aunts became Witnesses back in the 1920's, 45 years after the religion began. They are all dead. My mother became a Witness in 1944, 65 years after the religion began. She is dead. I started college in 1960, 80 years after the religion began. My Witness buddies told me that Armageddon would come before I would graduate from college. My buddies are all grand parents, one is dead. I am retired. So much for a sense of urgency.

  Don't let fear control what you do regarding a relationship with God.
• 

  Stealth

  Hello, eriK,

  Welcome to the board.

  Many of your questions have been discussed at lenght on this site.

  Try and use the search function at the top of the page and you will find a wealth of information about these subjects.

  Slow down, take a deep breath and start reading, you will be around long after all of your questions are answered.
• 

  Francois

  Alan has addressed your questions as only Alan can do. I'm sure you'll get more responses as well. I'm particularly interested in Alan's use of the scriptures about false prophets in Deut. 18. With that scripture in mind, I think you should go to the following site and start at the very top and read every word:

  .. http://www.intrex.net/tallyman/the_list.html

  Frankly, I don't believe in the same God you believe in, nor in the one that the Witnesses believe in. I do not believe that the majestic, loving, and merciful God, the creator of the Universe of Universes would harm a hair on the head of the worst sinner on the planet. Why? "God is Love." God is not the hate-filled God made in the image of man with all of man's features, failures, faults, foibles, and fuckups; the God of the Watchtower.

  They say there are no atheists in fox holes. And well that might be. But if you're going to find a god for yourself in these troubled times, why don't you find one who can and will help you foster and protect the only thing that really matters: your relationship with him.

  And look at what the God of the Watchtower has done for you already: he's blown up your relationship with your fiancee' and you haven't even gone back yet. And don't blame your girlfriend because she can recognize and reject BS when she sees it. Unfortunately, it looks as if the baby (you) is going to get thrown out with the bathwater.

  Have you asked yourself how you're going to feel in, say, five or ten years after you've shit-canned your relationship with this woman with whom you are in love, and there's NO Armageddon? How WILL you feel then? Foolish? Self-Deceived? Sucked dry? Had?

  I don't know about you, but every - and I mean EVERY - time I've done something motivated by fear I've screwed myself royally. And that's where you are now.

  Be careful. Be thoughtful. You don't want to live a life filled with regret because you lost your woman needlessly.

  Francois
• 

  r51785

  It seems to me that your motive for returning to the JW religion is fear. Since you left the religion in 1992 many horrible things have happened throughout the world. For example the genocide in Rwanda or perhaps killer cyclones in Bangaladesh. Evidently these things did not bother you enough to return to the Kingdom Hall. It took something
  happening in the USA to do that.
  Is fear a good reason to have religious faith? Does not the scripture say that perfect love casts fear out. Isn't the fear of a fiery hell the thing which "Christendom" used to scare its followers into their churches. Is the JW use of Armageddon any different?
  Bad things have happened throughout history. If you do not believe me and somehow think that our time is worse than all others, please go to the library and check out a copy of "A Distant Mirror" by Barbara Tuchman (one of the foremost historians of the twentieth century).
  However you choose make it a choice based on reason and faith, not fear. I wish you all the best.
• 

  Trevor Scott

  Hi Erik. AlanF and others pretty much covered all the bases but I will make a couple additional comments:

  >>> 1. Why was there a change in definition of “generation”? Is it new light or is it that those who were alive in 1914 are passing away fast, so there is a necessity to change the view?

  Its funny to look back at how the WTS slowly redefined the definition of a generation over the years, as the supposed "1914 generation" got older and older. Eventually they hit the breaking point, and they had to dump the prophecy. "New light" is simply the red herring the WTS uses to dump their embarrassing unfulfilled prophecies, and cosy up to governments when it suits them. Check out this article for more details on 1914: http://caic.org.au/jws/predictions/1914gen1.htm

  >>> 3. The issue of the annointed. They know they are going to heaven, no question in their minds, they are Jehovah Witnesses.

  Christians "know they are going to heaven, no question in their minds". How do you explain this?

  >>> 5. Are these times the beginning of a worldwide quest for “peace and security.”

  Maybe, maybe not. One thing I'll say is that the phrase "peace and security" comes from the bible, not the JWs (1 Thes 5:3). When I hear political leaders and the media going on and on about "peace and security", it strengthens my faith in the Bible, not in the JWs.

  Same as the fact that Israel and specifically Jerusalem is and has been the flash point of so much of what goes on in the world. But the WTS would have you believe Israel/Jerusalem has nothing to do with end-time prophecy (replacementism).

  >>> 9. As far as people going to heaven or people being resurrected on paradise earth, some will say that the 144,000 and the Great Crowd both go to heaven. However, Jesus resurrected Lazarus (John 11) back here to Earth. If when you die you go to heaven, why would Jesus resurrect back Lazarus back here on Earth?

  Revelation clearly portrays both groups (Great Crowd, 144,000) in the same location:

  "After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb." (Rev 7:9)

  "And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth." (Rev 14:3)

  "After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God," (Rev 19:1)

  10. (Adding to AlanF's comment) or how about David? He left the Israelite nation completely under the rule of Saul. Did he not still have God's Spirit?

  Definitely finish reading Crisis of Conscience if you haven't yet. Also read Gentile Times Reconsidered. Another book that helped me was Kingdom of the Cults. I recommend spending some time at Freeminds.org, there's a look of helpful material there.

  TS,
• 

  think41self

  Hi ERik,

  I just wanted to say Welcome to the board!

  Others have already answered your questions, more eloquently than I. You are already on a good path by wanting to make decisions for yourself and think for yourself.

  I feel badly that you are going through the emotional turmoil that you are. Many of us experienced the same. Most of my family are still witnesses, though I have been out for several years and will never return. Please do not make important decisions based on fear. That is not the right reason. Try to take a deep breath, calm down, and think rationally. Good luck to you in your search for answers!

  think41self

  "Not believing is not the same as not knowing."