Ray Franz and September, 11 (page 2)

SANDMAN

HI!

Thanks for your comments Jan, I haven't seen for this sight. "Supernaturalist fatalism", WOW, man are a philosopher, Ph.D or what? Sorry, not familiar with theses terms :).

All the best

SANDMAN

Hey fellows,

Just a curiosity, when a was posting this text I ask for myself if there are any consistent critic to Ray Franz thoughts at COC or ISFCF (his two books) in Jehovah's witnesses world.

Although we all know they are forbidden to read theses books, and often when they read it there is no answer, there is not a bias because Jehovah's witnesses are so winllingly to accecpt something that is wrote (like children)? It is not because they have not trainned theirs critical readings skills?

SANDMAN

Satanus

Sandman

While rays first book was instrumental in letting me see the wt is not directed by god, i still have a criticism. Ray still is basically a jw. His beliefs only differ slightly. You must remember that he was forced out (dfd). He basically begged for mercy, but didn't get it. He did not want to leave the org. I'm not talking about his leaving the gb here, which was voluntary. Yes, he has kept the jw frame of mind intact. He is a jw with a slightly different color hat.

S

Tina

Greetings satan!
That's how I see RF as well. While having great respect for writing the books that he has. The christian agenda is still loud and clear.
This does sound like a WT blurb.(thanks Jan) The sense of christian (JW type)exclusivity ia there. Thanks ,Tina

si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes

Norm

Sandman,

Here is another example of "Supernaturalistic fatalism" which is the idea that mankind cant do anything to better their situation, only God can. The WTS is extreme in this regard:

THE MILLENNIUM THAT WILL BLESS MANKIND
AN ANCIENT writer once observed: "To earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step." (Jeremiah 10:23) Man lacks not only the ability but also the right to rule the earth. Our maker, Jehovah God, alone has the right and the know-how to solve mankind's problems.- Romans 11:33-36; Revelation 4:11.

So do nothing to help people, ony God can do that.

Norm.

Eyebrow

Sandman,

I did forget to say thanks for posting the letter...I was curious as to Ray's take.

=)

Escargot

Dear father of the lie:

With respect,

I disagree that Ray “begged” to stay in. In fact, as the book shows, he could have taken the path of stating that he would not “eat a meal” with is xJW employer. He stood on principle. He chose not to followup on his appeal letter, after considering all the options.

Also, Brother Franz sets out in his books a good number of JW beliefs that are not Bible based, or could be interpreted a number of ways. Though many of the JW’s beliefs are questionable, there are a good number that has merit as well. His comment about no nations having God’s backing is well in line with Daniel 2:44 ( I question truly if Ray wrote this letter. It is my current viewpoint that it does not seem to be his writing style).

Brother Franz showed a lot of courage to do what he did, he helped a lot of us to see the whole picture. We paid for this party “with our dearest blood.........”

Erasmus (1520 AD): "If we want truth, every person ought to be free to speak what they think without fear."

Fredhall

Hey All,

I wander can he say something better while sitting on his toilet?

Satanus

Fred You're pretty funny.

Escargot

I hit the post limit. Had to wait for a while.

Yes ray had the courage to stick to his beliefs. My point is that he was clinging to the wt till the end. There are many secrets about it that he still will not divulge.

Ray wrote three letters to the gb asking for relief aide on his appeal of the dfing. On pg 322 he describes 'how critically some statement from them was needed.' That is the flavor surrounding those 3 appeal letters directly to the gb. It was only after waiting for weeks, with no gb response, and realizing, as he says on pg 'an adverse decision was somehow being deliberately sought', then concluding there was absolutely no hope whatsever, that he withdrew his appeal. He realised there was nothing he could do to avert the inevitable. It wasn't his style to camp on the brooklyn bethel doorstep, hoping the gb would come by, then cry all over them. Nevertheless, those 3 letters to the gb and the original appeal letter, in my opinion constitute begging.

If he would have realised and lived jesus' words, to go to jesus, he would not have held on to the wt to the last. Very few jws willingly withdraw, because of the doctrinal flaws. That takes even more courage, because they willingly let go of their percieved one and only hope, for what.. for something insubstantial. Letting go of the definite/visible/concrete to reach out for the indefinite/insubstantial/unkown takes more courage than ray had at that time.

S

hillary_step

'After these things I saw another angel descending from heaven dressed as a chubby little Tabby with a pink bow around its neck and very little authority was given to him, so he cried out with a loud voice saying "Lord, when am I going to be appointed as a Ministerial Servant, this is just not fair".

And I heard another voice out of heaven say "I wander can he say something better while sitting on his toilet?" and a third of the earth fell asleep at the sound of the angels voice and the first angel went on to say "just a litter while longer and the Tabby will be an apostate".....

HS

Ray Franz and September, 11

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