LONG discussion with my parents. (long post of course)

by LtCmd.Lore 38 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  MadTiger

  This young man has natural skills.
  
  Keep at it.
• 

  sinis

  "Yeah, but that's world war II, the first on was the important one."

  That's one I hate to agree with the dubs on. WW1 was a more ground shaking war on the grounds of how many century long monarch's collasped over night. There is one problem though it didn't start armageddon. Which according to Russel's original idea it was supposed to do. That also it started way to late in the year and really didn't get going good till 1915.

  Not really. WWI is almost at the bottom of this list:

  http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#100yrs

  As far as monarch changes:

  http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_changes_happened_to_the_countries_involved_in_World_War_1

  Well, a number of monarchies changed to republics. People were sick and tired of monarchs deciding to step in war. A large number of countries had revolts to deal with, allthough Russia is the only country to have an actual revolt (next to ALbania) In short. Germany - were bankrupted by the treaty of Versailles and changed from monarchy to republic. the Kaiser fled to Holland. Russia - already during the war, the romanov's were abducted. The country fell into a civil war which led to the communist regime in 1920. America - changed from protective to very protective, claiming they all left Europe previously and not wanted to be involved in any kind of war again. England - the monarchy came under pressure. It barely survived, but the monarch had to live according to the constitution (they weren't an absolute monarchy for some time though. Austria- the Donau monarchy was split in Hungary and Austria, leaving Austria minimalized. Changed into republic. Poland - got back the city of Danzig (Gdansk) from Germany. Ottoman empire - was split up. End of story. Don't know more details.

  These are a few countries. Overall, it helped to emancipate the working class. On the political front a large number of socialist parties were organized throughout Europe.

  Is that REALLY a bad thing?
• 

  Mum

  Lt.C: You are awesome!

  Your parents sound a little more relaxed and open than most dubs. They were able to talk with you while maintaining a sense of humor and not getting scared or emotional.

  Nathan is right about the religious discrimination issue. They insist on their rights, so you insist on yours. His "smoking wrecks" comment is great. Dawg is right on target as well. Drew S is right that your parents probably won't listen to reason, as their security blanket seems very important to them.

  Because you are so young, it is important to be very careful in establishing a different life. The folks on this forum always have great advice, so you won't be in the dark when problems arise.

  All the best in your journey to a better life,

  SandraC
• 

  LtCmd.Lore

  Hey everyone, thanks for all the brilliant/complimentary/helpful responses.

  I'll try to cover as much as possible:

  it would be interesting to know what made you start down the road of questioning what you'd been taught by your parents, and how much you credit the Internet with helping you come to your decision

  If I recall correctly.... It all started one day when I was 15 years old and I just couldn't wrap my brain around Noahs Flood. It just struck me as something that was meant to be symbolic, and I knew there was something wrong with it. So eventually it hit me: "How would he fit all those animals on the ark?" (Big Revelation right right there huh?) So I did the research. (All using WT publications of course.) And I knew it wouldn't work. So I forgot about it for a couple weeks. But all the time I was realizing that I wouldn't even WANT to live in the paradise. (For totally obvious reasons.) So I eventually figured: "What the heck." And I did some REAL research online.

  Turns out there are HUGE problems with the flood story on every level, and in the process learned that the Tower of Babel was also either wrong or symbolic. That alone was not enough to turn me into an atheist of course. But since I already knew for a fact that the witnesses were wrong, I felt free to do all the research I wanted. And eventually learned about the 607/587 thing, the UN scandal, and all that good stuff. And I quickly snowballed into a rabbid apostate.

  So in short, I simply allowed myself to think, plus due to boredom and a general dislike of the paradise I didn't force myself to ignore it. But of course that wouldn't have done any good if I hadn't had access to the internet. So I thank the internet for my freedom, since that's what REALLY got me started. And especially this site, since this is a great source of smart and logical arguments, and supportive people who have gone through what I'm going through. So there's mental and emotional support.

  Your comment about how you would know they weren't your real parents was brilliant! I think it also took your Dad aback, because he was so sure he had you on that one. Did you do alot of advance preparation for this conversation or was it totally off the top of your head?

  Yeah that one definately shook him, in fact he told me later that night that he'd think about that question of what would possibly convince him. (Mind you that was last Saturday after the study, but he hasn't got back to me on it yet...)

  Well, I've been doing research on apostate and atheistic and various other religious beliefs DAILY for almost three years... add to that the fact that I spend 5 hours a week at the meetings, therefore I learn everything THEY learn too. So this conversation was totally spur of the moment, in fact all I did was make a funny face and that started the whole thing. But I've had all these general arguments in mind for several years.

  For example, I got that particular idea (What would convince you you're wrong?) from this article:

  Question #1: What evidence would falsify your chosen variety of creationism?

  Falsifiability is a necessary (though not a sufficient) condition for any explanation that would call itself scientific. If there is no possible way a hypothesis could be proven wrong, not even in principle, then it is not science.http://www.ebonmusings.org/evolution/twoquestions.html

  And I recently heard a tottally brilliant explaination of why a lot of people conclude that Jesus died on a cross. I'd love to try that out someday.

  And thanks for the link to the book, I'll check it out.

  I asked an elder (PO at the time) if the Bible was inspired. His response was 'Yes'

  I then asked him is the Watchtower was inspired? His response was 'No'.

  "Then why are we told to goto the Watchtower first when gathering research. He couldn't answer.

  Hmm.. I like that one! I'll add it to my list of intelligent things I want to say someday.

  They're overstepping their authoritiy when they say that they as men can't be questioned and by so doing you're "apostate". This statement is blasphemy period!

  That's also good... I'll add it to my list!

  "Yeah, but that's world war II, the first on was the important one."

  That's one I hate to agree with the dubs on. WW1 was a more ground shaking war on the grounds of how many century long monarch's collasped over night. There is one problem though it didn't start armageddon. Which according to Russel's original idea it was supposed to do. That also it started way to late in the year and really didn't get going good till 1915.

  I SOOO Wish I could have gone into that! I wanted to tell them about 607, I wanted to tell them that the dude was asassinated BEFORE Satan was supposed to have been cast down and started the whole thing, so it couldn't have been him. And I wanted to explain that it's NOT an accurate prophecy if you predict something WRONG... And most of all, I wanted to show that the world is acctually BETTER now than it has ever been! But I didn't want them to know that I was already doing research outside of the WT library.

  Lore
• 

  poppers

  Great post, LtC. Good luck.
  
  From inbyathread: "I asked an elder (PO at the time) if the Bible was inspired. His response was 'Yes'
  
  I then asked him is the Watchtower was inspired? His response was 'No'.
  
  "Then why are we told to goto the Watchtower first when gathering research. He couldn't answer."
  
  Beautiful. That was like a knife going right to the heart. I hope he felt the pain.
• 

  ex-nj-jw

  I admire you for even being able to discuss this with them. My parents would have said "because I said so, now no more questions study your magazine!

  nj
• 

  Blueblades

  LTC. Very good! May I recommend a book called: Captives of a Concept, Understanding the Illusionary Concept That Hold Jehovah's Witnesses Captive. Don Cameron. Go to the members area and click on Don's site all the information is right there at your finger tips. You will find it a great resource and help for your parents.

  When your mom told you that she checked the Watchtower Society's History, this book will test that out.

  Blueblades
• 

  RHodge6685

  Oh wow...you were brilliant! I was riveted reading through your conversation, and impressed with how logical your comments to them were. I wish I had been that smart at 18. Instead, that is when I began studying and got sucked in for 18 more years. I hope that they will start to think for themselves after talking to you.
• 

  TheListener

  thank you so much for posting that. You were excellent. I wish I had your skill.