Because..The WBTS says so..They also said you shouldn`t use aluminum..And..They know which planet God lives on..And..The Generation of 1914 would not pass away..And..Armageddon will be here by 1975..Those guys are smart..
..Why would you question them?...OUTLAW
The 144,000...How do JWs get that only 144K are going to Heaven?
by A-Team 20 Replies latest watchtower bible
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OUTLAW
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reneeisorym
But remember now that the 12,000 from the 12 tribes is symbolic. symbolic number x symbolic number = literal number of Jehovah's Witnesses in the 20th/21st century!
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Arthur
Trying to assert that the 144,000 applies only to faithful first-century Christians as well as the few faithful Christians living thereafter (including the current remnant in the WT organization) is very shakey at best.
Remember that the Scritptures show that there were some 3,000 who were baptized at Pentacost alone. After that, the historical evidence shows that there were hundreds of thousands that became believers. Historical evidence shows that hundreds of thousands of Christians were martyred for their beliefs (some by the Roman empire, many others by the inquisitions).
Watchtower publications do state that there were indeed faithful Christians living throughout the centuries leading up to the nineteenth century, but they seem to underestimate the numbers of those that they term "true Christians".
The sheer number of faithful Christians (many hundreds of thousands) that existed in the first century, and in subsequent centuries is very hard to reconcile with the teaching that there are only 144,000 "annointed" Christians.
All of this coupled with the fact that the "cut off" for the annointed selection was 1935, now it isn't; that Jehovah now has to fine "replacements" makes this doctrine even more dubious. I say that this doctrine is just another lemon that was a "hand-me-down" doctrine from Russell and Rutheford.
With all of the rediculous and fanciful silliness that these two men taught, and had to be discarded; we are supposed to believe this 144,000 business is still valid? I say that it's barrel of rotten apples.
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Sarah Smiles
That is a good question! Why do they think that only the 144,000 should partake and go to heaven. Why not all who believe in Christ partake heavenly, earthly, or hell boy class! I like Hell boy!
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Arthur
That is a good question! Why do they think that only the 144,000 should partake and go to heaven. Why not all who believe in Christ partake heavenly, earthly, or hell boy class! I like Hell boy!
Even if the two-class system were true, there is still no solid Scriptural justification for teaching that the earthly class are not to partake. The Scriptures indicate that all of those who put faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice would partake. When Jesus said to "keep doing this in rememberance of me", he never indicated that this was reserved for one distinct class. It is striking that something this important would have been left unsaid by Christ himself. There is nothing in Scripture to indicate that people who attended the Lord's Evening Meal were to just idly sit there as "observers", as the Watchtower asserts.
There are other religions that teach the two-class, or "two-tiered" system (Seventh Day Adventists, Christadelphians). Such doctrinal constructions usually always employ some very creative interpretative methods, as well as bold statements that certain verses of the NT don't really mean what they say (such as Romans chapter 8 and 1John 5:1).
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Lady Liberty
Dear Adrenaline,
WELCOME to the forum. I would like to share this with you regarding Revelation. It is just some food for thought.
The Society says only the 144,000 have such an heavenly hope, they get this from Rev 7:4. What is hard to believe is the Society takes this number as a literal number from symbolic numbers in Rev 7:5-8, 12 tribes times 12,000. What about Rev 14: 4 where it speaks of the 144,000 being all men and virgins? According to the Society, the 144,000 are made up of men and women married and single. The Society also takes the scripture in Rev 7:9 as symbolic when the Great Crowd is before the throne and before the Lamb. Now I ask who says you can pick and choose this is symbolic and this is literal ? Why is Rev. 20: 1-9 taken as literal but verse 10 is symbolic? Makes you wonder.
Sincerely,
Lady Liberty
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Lady Liberty
Dear Adrenaline,
Another thought too is this scripture in Rev. 7:13-15 it says:
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And in response one of the elders said to me: "These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?" 14 So right away I said to him: "My lord, you are the one that knows." And he said to me: "These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them.Clearly the scripture is talking about the great crowd, and where are they? In his temple. We know God's temple is not on earth right? To confirm where this temple is read further on in
Rev. 11:19,
19
And the temple [sanctuary] of God that is in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple [sanctuary]. And there occurred lightnings and voices and thunders and an earthquake and a great hail.Sincerely,
Lady Liberty
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Sarah Smiles
Revelation 6:
9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.
Revelation 7:3
saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:
The 144,000 were already sealed.
9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, No man but God know the number out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
No man was able to number but God knows how many will join the ones "until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been."
11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
I think I will keep thinking the 144,000 is a symbolic number.
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Lady Liberty
Dear Adrenaline,
I was thinking about your comment, and as others have pointed out to you there are so many different things that the Witnesses have taught that are clearly not from the Bible otherwise those things would still be taught today. But staying on this subject, lets just go with the teaching of 144,000 for a moment....
Say 144,000 is a literal number. Wouldn't it stand to reason that that number would have been already collected? Look back at the scriptures, and how rapidly after Jesus there came to be Christians. Here is just one example:
Acts 2:41
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Therefore those who embraced his word heartily were baptized, and on that day about three thousand souls were added.Are you familiar with the Catacombs? They are filled with 5-6 million Christians. Let's just say that the majority of those buried there were not "true" Christians, but were "professed" Christians....(as the Society refers to them) don't you think that there would have been at least 144,000 faithful, true Christians collected between that time period and our present day?? Is it really logical to think that the majority of that number would have been collected in 1919 ? It just doesn't make sence. Just in case you have never heard of the Catacombs, here is a 1999 Awake December 8th magazine that speaks of the Catacombs ( I am only posting this because my Elder brother in law rejected the idea that there even were catacombs): http://www.catacombe.roma.it/
Visiting
theParisCatacombsFrom the Denfert-Rochereau Square, just south of Paris’ Latin Quarter, I make my way down the 91 steps into the catacombs. In 1787 the ladies of the royal court were among the first to view this underground burial ground by the light of burning torches. Today, 160,000 visitors come each year.
After the staircase comes a seemingly endless series of galleries where corpses are stored. I walk gingerly, reflecting on the fact that the catacombs occupy more than 100,000 square feet [11,000sqm]. A man named Philibert Aspairt gained unsought fame when he tried to find his way through these hundreds of miles of galleries. In 1793 he got lost in this maze. His skeleton was found 11 years later, identified by his keys and clothing.
About 30 percent of the area under Paris has been quarried. For a long time, quarrying was uncontrolled. In 1774, however, 1,000 feet [300m] of rue d’Enfer (Hell Street, now Denfert-Rochereau) collapsed into an abyss 100 feet [30m] deep. Paris was in danger of caving in. The stones "we see above ground," exclaimed one writer, are "missing under our feet." To support the underground galleries, magnificent arches were built.
"It’s a shame they didn’t pave the ground while they were at it," I lament, observing my muddy shoes. Slipping in a puddle, I manage to catch hold of a heavy bronze door. Behind the door lies a corridor with walls built of human bones. Grimacing skulls and brittle femurs and tibiae arranged in rows and in the shape of crosses and wreaths present a morbid scene. Slabs are engraved with Bible verses and poems reflecting man’s meditation on the meaning of life and death.
Upon leaving the catacombs, I clean the mud off my shoes in the gutter, making sure that my keys do not decide to revisit the Paris sewers! My tour in the fascinating underground world of Paris has been an unusual experience that I will not quickly forget. Without a doubt, there is much more to Paris than meets the eye.
And too think about all those Christians who were tortured for their faith in Jesus. Yet, when asked about these ones like in the Questions from the Readers below, they are tossed off as just "professed Christians". Claiming they were not faithful to the death. Well, if you have ever done any research on the type of persecution those early Christians went through, you will definately have a different opinion. They were tortured in the most gruesome ways imagineable.
QuestionsfromReaders
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LargenumbersofChristiansaresaidtohavebeenputtodeathduringtheRomanpersecutioninthefirstfewcenturiesoftheCommonEra.How,then,isitpossibleforthousandsinthiscenturytohavebeencalledtobecomepartofthebodyofChristcomposedofonly144,000persons?—U.S.A.There are historical indications that many Christians were bitterly persecuted, even killed, in the first few centuries. However, it should be remembered that, in itself, a martyr’s death did not give a person merit before Jehovah God nor did it guarantee membership in the heavenly kingdom. Many persons, even in recent times, have been willing to die for a cause, religious or otherwise. A person’s claiming to be a Christian and even dying for his belief does not in itself mean that he is an approved servant of Jehovah God. As the apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians: "If I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body, that I may boast, but do not have love, I am not profited at all." (1 Cor. 13:3) It is not death, but faithfulness to the very death, that determines whether an individual will receive "the crown of life."—Rev. 2:10.
Thus the fact that today there is still a remnant of the 144,000 on earth would show that down to this twentieth century fewer than 144,000 finished their earthly course in faithfulness.
Now see below the contradiction in the Societies own literature as to the reason the early Christians were persecuted. They were objects of hatred because they were obeying God as ruler rather then men. I would say that was remaining faithful.
Watchtower 1971 April 1st:
Why
EarlyChristiansWerePersecuted• Roman history is stained with the blood of the early followers of Jesus Christ. Why? Philip Schaff answers this in his book HistoryoftheChristianChurch:
"The conscientious refusal of the Christians to pay divine honors to the emperor and his statue, and to take part in any idolatrous ceremonies at public festivities, their aversion to the imperial military service, their disregard for politics and depreciation of all civil and temporal affairs as compared with the spiritual and eternal interests of man, their close brotherly union and frequent meetings, drew upon them the suspicion of hostility to the Caesars and the Roman people."
Yes, the early Christians were "objects of hatred" because, in these matters for which they were persecuted, they were ‘obeying God as ruler rather than men.’—Mark 13:13; Acts 5:29.
Anyway, I thought I would share this with you because most Witnesses have never thought about this before. I myself included. It wasn't until I started to really look at the scriptures and historical facts, that I realised things really didn't add up.
Sincerely,
Lady Liberty
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Lady Liberty
Here is another article that shows why the early Christians were persecuted:
Watchtower 1964 December 1st- Persecution the Badge of the True Christian pg. 711
If true Christians were not thus hated and persecuted and spoken against, how could they be among those described by Jesus: "Happy are those who have been persecuted for righteousness’ sake, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them. Happy are you when people reproach you and persecute you and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake"?—Matt. 5:10, 11.
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This is in accord with the faithful pattern of the early Christians, of whom it is written: "You endured a great contest under sufferings, sometimes while you were being exposed as in a theater both to reproaches and tribulations, and sometimes while you became sharers with those who were having such an experience. For you both expressed sympathy for those in prison and joyfully took the plundering of your belongings."—Heb. 10:32-34.
Genuine Christians bear up under persecution because they have so many assurances from God’s Word, like that at Luke 21:18, 19: "And yet not a hair of your heads will by any means perish. By endurance on your part you will acquire your souls." They do not expect some miraculous deliverance from abuse or even death. They are confident in Jehovah’s power to resurrect them out of death to a grand reward in harmony with Jesus’ promise: "He that finds his soul [life] will lose it, and he that loses his soul for my sake will find it."—Matt. 10:39.