What if you're missing the purpose?

by journey-on 161 Replies latest jw friends

  • journey-on
    journey-on

    Okay, JT, Nark, Poppers, Nvrgnbk, Purps, and anyone else who cares to continue this discussion:

    There are four characters in this scenario:

    #1 - The actor/participant

    #2 - An interceptor

    #3 - A spectator/observer

    #4 - A commentator/announcer

    The actor initiates the act/movement and races dangerously toward a "goal". A little past midway, the interceptor makes a determination as to the actor's intention and situation and initiates an attempt to rescue/halt the actor's movement or at least alter the course. Meantime, on the sidelines, the spectator/observer watches the action making comments and speculations in rapt excitement. The commentator/announcer is simply reporting the action and comments on the terrain and surrounding area. At the end of the action, this commentator simply states the facts of the outcome without emotion or explanation.

    OKAY....Based on our discussions previously, which of these "persons" represents the REAL YOU? And do any of the others represent a different aspect of you.

    Please indulge me here. Each of you give me your answer without collaborating with the others, please. I'd just like to see if we are all seeing the same thing or if it just sounds that way.

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas

    Narkissos:

    Now who/what is observing "that which observes everything" and comes back to tell about it within the constraints of language -- if not a separate, dualistic, language-based mind?

    And by calling "It" "Con-sciousness" hasn't this mind sneakingly ascribed "It" its own complex co-gnitive structure, only reversing it as a mirror image (which in this case may imply the denial of complexity, otherness, separateness, antagonism)? If slightly more subtle, is this process, in depth, any less "anthropomorphic" than the old mythmaking by which man made deities after his own image (however equally denying what he disliked in it, i.e. finitude, weakness, transience and mortality) in order to construe himself as the image of a somehow better Other?

    Is the complex questions and expositions created by the mind, a valid reason to not see for oneself?

    j

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas

    Journey-on,

    To try and understand intellectually what we truly are, is futile. It's a mental exercise that can go on forever, with the only valid outcome being: having no clue.

    So, I guess my answer to you, is no answer. You have to see for yourself. Then you tell me.

    j

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    which of these "persons" represents the REAL YOU?

    To me, both none and all. Consciousness always implies interaction of several characters and a spectator's standpoint, which is itself subject to infinite subjective regression (... an observer observing the observer observing the observer, ad lib.). This is the mirror-like cognitive process of homo sapiens sapiens, based on language to which the plurality of grammatical persons (1st, 2nd, 3rd) is structurally essential. Even within one mind the play represents a potentially infinite number of characters, or positions, imitating the social network in which language emerged in the first place.

    Btw, I would modify the scenario by adding that every "action" is already a re-action. Only by arbitrarily defining a "beginning" (and end) can the observer give narrative sense to an ongoing flow of events -- a sense which would be modified by a different framing (as in the famous Chinese story of the peasant and the horse) and asymptotically dissolve into nonsense (but nonsense itself would only be named such after "sense," i.e. the broader perspective from the narrower).

  • poppers
    poppers

    In your scenario, the actor/participant and the interceptor are both creations of the mind. The spectator/observer is the underlying consciousness, the real You - he "does" nothing, just observes, just accepts, is totally open to the flow of events with no investment in how things go one way or the other.

    The commentator/announcer is the mind taking what has been observed and putting words to it. He is a function of the mind as well. Commentators who are commenting from alignment with source/you/consciousness deviate little from what's happening. Commentators who stray far from alignment with source/you/consciousness will interject interpretations, judgment, and bias on what is happening. That's what happens with religion - what's happening is distorted by the lens of accepted beliefs and it is reflected in the commentator's description.

  • quietlyleaving
    quietlyleaving
    The actor initiates the act/movement and races dangerously toward a "goal". A little past midway, the interceptor makes a determination as to the actor's intention and situation and initiates an attempt to rescue/halt the actor's movement or at least alter the course. Meantime, on the sidelines, the spectator/observer watches the action making comments and speculations in rapt excitement. The commentator/announcer is simply reporting the action and comments on the terrain and surrounding area. At the end of the action, this commentator simply states the facts of the outcome without emotion or explanation.

    Those persons are all me. But the actor who races dangerously toward the goal is propelled forward by a surge of hormones and sympathetic nerves, the cautioning intuitive part of my brain comes into play as the interceptor. The spectator/observer is also me but in my objective mode, and the commentator is the part of me that keeps an overview.

    And then there is the me that can rest in silence, in neutral, in parasympathetic mode - still me but not identifying with anything or anybody.

  • poppers
    poppers

    JamesThomas is right. No matter what the explanation is it falls short of the actuality, and will only generate more things ego thinks it needs answers to, and then mind chases after. When you see it for yourself it becomes obvious.

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    Poppers has given a beautiful and eloquent description of our "true self" as being that which is conscious awareness, without the constraints of ego-identity. There is seeing, there is tasting, there is feeling, there is hearing, there is smelling, our true experiential awareness is who we really are?

    Although seductive and difficult to argue, I want to throw a monkey wrench into this but Narkissos has beat me to it somewhat with his post.

    Now who/what is observing "that which observes everything" and comes back to tell about it within the constraints of language -- if not a separate, dualistic, language-based mind?

    And by calling "It" "Con-sciousness" hasn't this mind sneakingly ascribed "It" its own complex co-gnitive structure, only reversing it as a mirror image (which in this case may imply the denial of complexity, otherness, separateness, antagonism)? If slightly more subtle, is this process, in depth, any less "anthropomorphic" than the old mythmaking by which man made deities after his own image (however equally denying what he disliked in it, i.e. finitude, weakness, transience and mortality) in order to construe himself as the image of a somehow better Other?

    Having a background in nursing, I have seen many patients whose cognitive function and awareness has broken down and deteriorated to a very large degree. They may have lost sense of sight, sense of smell and taste, sense of hearing and even sense of touch due to the degeneration of their nervous system/brain. Perhaps they have severe dementia and have lost all conscious awareness of reality. Perhaps they had brain damage to the language centeres of the brain and can no longer understand or use language. This is due to the actual physical deterioration of the complex cognitive structure and its delicate processes. Yet, the are still alive. They still exist. I'm not talking about patients kept alive artifically on respirators or feeding tubes. I'm referring to those who still breathe on their own without a respirator. Their physical bodies function on some level. They may swallow mush to sustain themselves while half asleep and not even tasting. Some may even be in a coma, not aware on any conscious level. So who are we when our neural and cognitive processes have broken down to such a degree that we have lost conscious awareness? We have lost all our senses that feed our experiential awareness? We are still alive. A breathing, eating, expelling, living organism.

    Seeing living examples of the breakdown of the brain's processes made me question if this "conscious awareness" of all, that we experience is the true self? Is this idea of our true nature just another artificial construct of our language based mind, as Narkissos has pointed out? When we are no longer consciously aware, when we can no longer understand or use language, when we can no longer sense the world around us, yet we still exist, who are we then? What is our purpose then?

    Cog

  • poppers
    poppers

    In cognitive's description, can there be a flat out denial of the presence of conciousness however limited the body's ability is to reflect that? When one is in deep dreamless sleep nothing appears on the screen of consciousness. Yet, when you awaken from that deep rest and you say, "I really slept well" what lets you know that sleep was deep? Consciousness was there all along and the mind reflects that in its statement.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    James,

    Is the complex questions and expositions created by the mind, a valid reason to not see for oneself?

    Did I say that?

    Everyone "sees" what they have to "see," everyone then interprets it as they can. And no matter what we have "seen" we can only refer to it (on this board for instance) through interpretations.

    If I have learnt something from my religious experience, it is to be particularly wary of interpreters who claim not to interpret.

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