UN vs WT -It doesn't matter

by Dan B 43 Replies latest jw friends

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  Dan B

  Does anybody honestly think that all this exposure about the WTB&TS and the UN really going to matter much in the JW community? Sure, it matters to us, since we already know the truth about the WT. But it won't even make a dent in the JW population. They are thoroughly conditioned to ignore news such as this. So when I see postings about dismantling the WT society, I just have to shake my head and wonder what fantasy world we are living in. I wish I was wrong, but unfortunately, I don't think so. They will survive this, as they have survived every other embarrassment in there pathetic 130 year history.

  Dan
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  Trilobite

  Dan,

  I disagree. The WTS has flourished because of the absence of access to information. More and more young Dubs are going to college and accessing the internet. Tremendous changes have already occurred. This WT/UN thing will set them back because it will make it harder for the WTS to deal with government agencies, esp. if the publicity increases.

  Imagine a young JW who is being criticized by the elders, say, for worldly associations; he or she gets royally pissed off and starts doing a bit of research on the WTS to give him or her ammo. That is happening all the time. Friends of JWs are coming to forums like this.

  In the past the average JW had more info. at their finger tips than the average person with a similar level of education. That is no longer the case. Dubdom thrived on the largely uneducated masses of the industrial revolution era. In the information era they are doomed.

  Change will not come solely from within, that's for sure; but without the ability to shield JWs from information and facts they are fighting what is ultimately a losing battle. Unless they grasp the nettle now.

  T.
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  Dan B

  Trilobite,

  I hope you're right. But judging from the responses I have personally witnessed when showing loyal JW's the real "truth", I doubt it.

  "More and more young Dubs are going to college and accessing the internet. Tremendous changes have already occurred."

  Young people have always left the JW's. That's nothing new. Of all the teenagers who I knew when I was young, 95% have since left. And this was pre-internet. What are the tremendous changes that you speak of?

  Dan
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  dungbeetle

  I agree with Dan B but for a different reason. There seem to be 'doctinal' JW's and 'social' JW's...as is the case with many religions. Many of teh 'doctirnal' JW's have left a long long time ago. The 'social' JW's are pretty much what's left and that explains the reactions we've been hearing about on this board.

  'Social' JW's don't care about doctrine. The UN issue won't matter to them. The blood, rape resistance, alternative service, pedophilia issues aren't going to move people like this. These people aren't UNHAPPY...why would they care.

  And I agree partially with Trilobite. Information and education is the key to many Jehovah's Witnesses leading better lives--whether inside or outside the organization--it is their choice. But exit-counselors who are specialists and leaders in their fields have been saying for years--maybe decades--the information such as this is best coming from non-jw's or jw's themselves.

  Sometimes we need to swallow our pride and accept the fact that our loved ones have chosen their religion over us. And sometimes we need to swallow some more pride and recognize that if anyone 'saves' our loved ones from the Watchtower, it isn't going to be us.

  There are people out there begging for the information we have; are we getting our info to everyone who wants and needs it? I've been asking myself this question since last weekend. Don't have any answers yet. Will let you know when I do.

  And we aren't really going to know what 'worked' or 'didn't work' untill the statistics come in. What's going on here at the board in some indication of the inroads being made....we shall se.

  Run Watchtower Run...

  Dungbeetle...so much dung, so little time...
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  Stash Daytripper

  Dan,

  It already HAS mattered... one or 2 JW's questioning this UN matter is a big deal.. it's a slow ripple.

  And there have been more JW's than 2 who have asked me about this.. I'm sure there are more who has asked everyone here.

  Can't bring down a whole organization overnight.. but it adds up.. more we find and pile up.. the less ammo they have.

  This is the way the world ends...
  This is the way the world ends...
  Not with a bang
  but a whisper.

  Peace,
  Stash
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  wannahelp

  Dan,

  I really don't know what it is going to have on the JW population.. I'm sure some will question it, some will ignore it, some it will light a spark that may take years to germinate into anything, and some will deny the whole thing and others this may be the final straw..

  But, I think it's just as important to try and get the information out there so the average person knows exactly what JW's are, so they won't get sucked into their 'slavery' in the first place...

  I think it's a two-front operation..

  Try and save as many JW's as possible, and at the same time, try to protect the general public from the Watchtower society..
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  Trilobite

  Dan,

  There've been changes on blood, alternative service, voting, view of evolution, this generation, signs of the times, organ transplants, etc. The deal with the UN was actually a progressive step for the organization and I'm sorry they've quit. They will regret it. The trouble in all this is that the rank and file are intentionally kept in the dark. The WTS's M.O. is to effect change so slowly that the older generation has long gone before the changes was apparent.

  True, many JW kids have always left; but many still believed it or could not refute it, or left under a cloud. Now they can present evidence in a highly articulate fashion. That effectively closes off the possibility of many returning becaus ethey have seen though it. Given the diminishment in the number of converts this wil be significant.

  The WTS succeeded because it could control the flow of information to JWs. Now it cannot. Simple as that.

  Change won't occur overnight, nor will it depend on a single issue; but it will arrive and faster than is expected. That's how ossified regimes finally collapse. Who would have though the Soviet Union would have gone as fast as it did?

  Need to keep the pressure up. That's all.

  T.
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  Trilobite

  dungbeetle,

  Good points; however, the WTS no longer has a coherent message. Older dubs actually believed all that bird food stuff. It seems unlikely to the new generation esp. without the types of reinforcement the WTS used to provide, e.g., threats against college etc. Martyrs and people who sacrifice much strengthen a religion. Basically the dubs are getting soft and the next generation of Dubs will either quit or just blow it off, by and large. I give it 5 years tops before that starts to happen in a major way. By then the GB will be either buried or buryable.

  We tend to overestimate this organization. As a religion it hasn't done that well and it will continue to decline and possibly fragment along party lines.

  T.
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  Dan B

  Please don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the whole thing come crashing down. However, I have to agree with Dungbeetle:

  "'Social' JW's don't care about doctrine. The UN issue won't matter to them. The blood, rape resistance, alternative service, pedophilia issues aren't going to move people like this. These people aren't UNHAPPY...why would they care."

  This is what I see personally. People who voluntarily join the JW's are looking for an escape, a "happy place" where all there thinking can be done for them. A place where they can follow somebody elses lead, and Satan is a scapegoat for all that is wrong in there lives and this world. They aren't going to leave this "spiritual paradise" because of something like this UN scandal. What about the 1975 debacle? I was there, and I don't remember a mass exodus. Sure, worldwide the numbers dropped, but it was by no means the end of the WT. Neither will this be. (Again, I hope I'm wrong!!)

  Dan
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  Trilobite

  Dan,

  I agree the religion won't vanish. But the changes will transform it from the virulent organization that it is today to an essentially mainstream religion, and fairly quickly in my view. Then it's no longer an issue. That's what I want, not for it to come crashing down. Abolition of the religion by its own proclamation would just put 6m unhappy dubs on the streets - they'd just be prey for the next cult.

  I understand your point Dan, and sort of agree with you. But I think the outlook is brighter than it looks.

  T.