by Dan B 43 Replies latest jw friends
Dungbeetle, your points show so much insight. I never thought of the social dub versus the doctrinal dub. Now that you mention it, I will look at the situation with your added insight. It has helped me a great deal.
I never heard if your name "dungbeetle" is taken from the wingled globe.
* http://www.viacorp.com/flybook/fulltext.html
* http://www.africanwildlife.org/Samples/dungbeet.html
Dungbeetle is from dungbeetle...at least on a conscious level (I hope)
Dungbeetle...so much dung, so little time...
dungbeetle:
There seem to be 'doctinal' JW's and 'social' JW's...as is the case with many religions. Many of the 'doctrinal' JW's have left a long long time ago. The 'social' JW's are pretty much what's left and that explains the reactions we've been hearing about on this board.
'Social' JW's don't care about doctrine. The UN issue won't matter to them. The blood, rape resistance, alternative service, pedophilia issues aren't going to move people like this. These people aren't UNHAPPY...why would they care.
Probably the most succinct and on-point summation I've ever encountered as to the difference between those who cannot remain with the WTS once they've learned of its appalling crimes and hypocrisies and those who cannot leave in spite of coming to the very same realizations. Of course, though, there are and will always be those who still buy it all hook, line, and sinker.
-AMNESIAN
The only problem with the analysis is that it is defined in retrospect. Those who were doctrinal have left while those who are Social stay. For many the doctrine is the social too. Indeed, many who remain despair of the doctrinal state of affairs and put it down to "the apostasy of the last days." That too is doctrinal.
It is true that the categories are becoming more and more disentangled; but once doctrine is finally divorced from social then the WTS loses power. The WTS's source of power is doctrinal; it is merely the implementation that is social.
as a dub....still "in"....and for the moment attending meetings....
and as one of the first to e-mail the u.n. to get answers to this watchtower affiliation....
IT MATTERS A WHOLE LOT TO ME!
-Zev
-August 8th, 2001 - The day the lambs ROARED
"But I think the outlook is brighter than it looks."
I hope so. However, any steps taken against the WT society from external sources would only fuel the "persecution complex". If that court issue in Ohio escalates, that will only reinforce the "fact" that the JW's are the "true religion". If this UN issue hits the media in a big way, that too will be seen as coming from Satan and his demons. When the Dateline episode finally airs about the pedophile issue, that too will be dismissed as the work of the Devil. It almost seems like we need "agents" inside the WT to bring reform from the inside. That way, the rank and file JW's will be more likely to listen. Who knows, maybe we already have them in place and we read their reports here daily? Or maybe some who are still active, but are on their way out would better serve the "cause" by sticking around and planting some seeds before they leave?
Dan
Hi Zev,
You stated:
"IT MATTERS A WHOLE LOT TO ME!"
I'm glad it does, but I can't help but wonder, since you have posted here 532 times, you already had serious doubts about the WT, and it is not just this UN issue that will cause you to leave. Consider if you totally agreed with the teachings of the WT, and would never think of visiting a site like this. Would it still matter a whole lot to you? Or would you dismiss it as lies of apostates?
Dan
Dan,
I don't think we disagree; the problem, to me, is that many feel that the WTS can exist in a vacuum and that "Dubs must be enlightened" for change to occur. History shows that all religions change when external circumstances change. The WTS, not us, will educate the dubs about the new ways. They are aleady doing that and would continue to do so even without us. They don't want to, and now cannot, go back to the lunacy of the Mad Hatter Franz. But they don't know how to get out of it either. Our task is to make things hotter for them if they don't alter than if they do.
What we are doing is exploiting the dichotomy that their own actions have created, so as to accelerate change. Creating fear in the leadership so that they do the necessary. Getting the odd Dub out, esp. our own relatives is important, but is not the overall goal. Why else would we point to their stupidly self-contradictory blood policy? After all, it is far better than it used to be. We do it because the contradiction can be exploited to make change go even faster; once the toothpaste is out of the tube it cannot be put back. We do it to save lives. If they had not altered one iota on blood from 1959 then what would our argument amount to? It would amount to no more than the interpretation of scripture, which could safely be ignored. But self-contradictions from God's spokesman are far more deadly weapons to use. Had they stayed away from the Un they would be in the clear, but they needed the UN and no will need it even more so.
After all, the simplest and most effective thing the leadership could have done would have been to hold the line on blood %100, make no changes to any doctrine and simply hold the fort. They made the changes, not us, they affiliated with the UN, not us. They are the agents of change, not us. Why did they do it? Who cares? We exploit their failure of nerve. The leadership is in a hole and we must continue to torment them because that will make things easier for the rank and file. They cannot go back.
They may react with a spasm of heavy-handedness; that could well be their undoing.
T.
Dan B,
It was pure pleasure to read this thread! You guys have proved that two-way conversations on the net, without name calling, without degrading or impugning one's intellegence, without rancor or sarcasim, it can and does happen...this thread is evidence. Good job!
You guys may be newbies, but you have just set the bar very high...for all those who witnessed this discussion!
Applause! Applause!
DannyBear
Dan B
I'll second that,real quality debate,I had to read it all.
