Birthdays—Simple Deconstruction of the JW Rationale

by AuldSoul 56 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Twitch

  Quietlyleaving

  You can save a webpage by selecting File, then Save As. Save the page with it's default title and format, which should be a complete html file. This will save the page as a formatted html page with all it's graphics and forms, which will be saved in a subfolder with the same name. Selecting this html file will open the page "offline" in your browser on your computer. This works in Internet Explorer for most websites. I don't know how to save an entire thread; you may have to save each page separately.

  As for bookmarking, right click on the webpage (a "clear" spot not a graphic) and select Add to Favorites (if using IE) or Bookmark (in Firefox and other browsers). You can quickly find the page again by checking your Favorites or Bookmarks folder. This requires you to be online.

  Good luck.
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  quietlyleaving

  thanks twitch - glad its so simple
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  ThomasCovenant

  Hi

  Another way to make a JW get confused over the birthday issue is ask what would they do if the WTS said that 'new light' meant they could celebrate birthdays.

  I used this arguement with one of my brother in laws with regard to the 'blood issue'. I said to him the real reason he wouldn't take blood is because the Society says he can't. There is NO other reason why they don't. I know it and they know it but they don't want it pointed out.

  Thanks

  Thomas Covenant
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  TheListener

  The Origen quote is found in the new kids book "listening to the great teacher" or something like that. It came out a few years ago.

  Anyway, you can look the quote up on the catholic encyclopedia to find out the actual context. It has to do with celebrating our life on earth instead of celebrating the day of our death and we inherit our heavenly reward. It doesn't have to do with christians not celebrating their birthdays due to paganism.

  If I'm mistaken on this please post it to this thread.
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  reneeisorym

  Thanks auldsoul -- that was a great line of reasoning. I am going to have a chance to use that next month so thanks ahead of time! :)

  Renee
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  M.J.

  *** it-1 p. 319 Birthday ***
  
  Historian Augustus Neander writes: “The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period.” (The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries, translated by H. J. Rose, 1848, p. 190) “Origen [a writer of the third century C.E.] . . . insists that ‘of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicings over the day on which they were born into this world below.’”—The Catholic Encyclopedia, 1913, Vol. X, p. 709.
  
  
  Get that. They always seem to dig something from who knows where, like some book by a historian from 1848!
  Anyway, the fact that Origen said something negative about birthdays is of little consequence. In the odd occasion when some quirky statement by an early church father agrees with their doctrine, its proof that "early christians did this or that". But when it doesn't, its proof that they were apostatizing.
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  proplog2

  CELEBRATING BIRTHDAYS.

  JW= of course JW WP = Worldly Person.

  WP. Would you care to have some birthday cake? JW. No, I don't celebrate birthdays?
  WP. Why is that? JW. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses and we don't celebrate
  birthdays because it's a pagan practice condemned by the Bible.
  WP. I didn't know the Bible actually condemned birth day parties.
  Would you care to give me the scripture where it says you shouldn't
  celebrate birthdays? Does it specifically say "Thou shalt not
  celebrate birthdays?" JW. Well, it doesn't specifically say "you should not celebrate
  birthdays" However, in the two instances where a birthday is
  mentioned in the Bible it is celebrated by a pagan and there were
  murders associated with the celebration. We feel that this is an
  indication of how Jehovah wants us to view birthdays.
  WP. Since there is no specific law that says birthdays are
  forbidden this is very weak evidence for your strong condemnation.
  Do you see that? JW. That's your opinion! We don't consider it weak evidence.
  WP. Do you understand the concept of Strong versus Weak evidence? JW. What do YOU mean by strong versus Weak evidence?
  WP. If the Bible said "Thou shalt not celebrate birthdays" and
  this command was stated by Jesus that would be pretty strong
  evidence that NO one could deny right? JW. True
  WP. Would you say that because Jews didn't do certain things that
  this is STRONG evidence that Christians are obligated to imitate
  the Jews on a particular matter? JW. Yes. At least in the case of Birthdays.
  WP. Did Jewish men shave their beards? JW. No.
  WP. Did you know shaving of the beard was a pagan ritual? Shaving
  is taken for granted today because our technology has given us
  sharp razors and great foamy stuff to remove our facial hair. Back
  then the only people who shaved were those who were required to do
  so as part of worship of a false God. If we were to use your
  formula for determining STRONG evidence then the evidence is just
  as STRONG for not carrying on the pagan practice of shaving your
  beard off. So why don't you avoid this pagan practice? JW. Shaving has been incorporated into our culture? And no one
  makes the connection to its pagan origins.
  WP. So then are you saying that if something isn't directly
  condemned by the Bible and if it is not associated by ones culture
  to its pagan origins then it is transformed into an acceptable
  practice? JW. Yes. But birthdays are still pagan!
  WP. What percentage of people in Western culture who celebrate
  their birthday is thinking about its pagan origins? 95% 75% 50%
  JW. I don't know
  WP. Would you think most do or maybe just a few Satan Worshiper
  types who are trying to insert pagan rituals into everything they
  do? The point I am trying to make is that Since there isn't a
  command in the Bible that says you shouldn't celebrate birthdays
  then you MUST HAVE a "general rule" that you feel is applicable to
  Birthdays. If you have a general rule that says "If a practice has
  a pagan origin it is wrong for a Christian to carry on such a
  practice" then you ought to follow this rule without exception in
  all things that might have a pagan origin including little pagan
  things like wedding rings, and shaving. JW. We don't go to extremes. We're not Mennonites.
  WP. Exactly but who decides where to draw the line? Shouldn't it
  be a matter of conscience. It is precisely this kind of thing
  which isn't specifically forbidden by the Bible that should be
  decided by the individual and not an organizational rule. JW. Well we consider it a protection. By not celebrating birthdays
  we avoid worldly contact.
  WP. Do you celebrate anniversaries? JW. Yes.
  WP. So do non JW's. Do you go to anniversaries of non-JW's who are
  close friends or relatives? JW. That would be a conscience matter.
  WP. Then couldn't the contact with NON-JW's be a matter of choice
  with birthdays also? I mean can you really say that avoiding Non-
  JW's is a valid reason for not celebrating birthdays when you have
  a choice of attending an anniversary of a NON-JW? JW. Another reason we don't celebrate birthdays is because the
  Early Christians didn't do it.
  WP. Does it say somewhere in the Bible that Christians didn't
  celebrate birthdays? JW. No but there are writings from the first Century that indicate
  Christians thought it was wrong to celebrate birthdays.
  WP. Are you adding those writings to the Bible as sacred and
  inspired? Where do you draw the line on what you consider sacred
  and inspired writings? Wouldn't evidence from the Ante-Nicene
  Fathers be considered weak? I am sure you could find practices of
  Christians from this period that you WOULDN'T recommend. JW. Nobody is telling you that you shouldn't celebrate birthdays.
  If we decide as a group that it is wrong that's our business. If
  you don't agree with it then just stay with your pagan religion.
  WP. The one thing I want to make clear is that if an individual
  decides in his conscience that birthdays are wrong that is HIS
  business. But that person should not condemn others in-as-much as
  the evidence is indirect and therefore WEAK. Creating a division
  between people by using WEAK evidence is sectarian and such an
  organization cannot recommend itself over all the other religions
  that maintain their identity with minor issues based on weak
  evidence. Read the entire 14th Chapter of Romans where we are told
  in vs 4 "Who are you to judge the house servant of another? To his
  own master he stands or falls...(5) One man judges one day as above
  another; another man judges one day as all others; let each man be
  fully convinced in his OWN mind." (10) But why do you judge your
  brother? Or why do you also look down on your brother?...(12)So,
  then each of us will render an account for himself to God...(22)
  The faith that you have, HAVE IT IN ACCORD WITH YOURSELF in the
  sight of God. Happy is the man that does not put HIMSELF on
  judgement by what HE approves."
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  AuldSoul

  erandir,

  "Auld, can you give us something about busting up the reasoning behind the attention-to-self thing that some witnesses use as a reasoning against birthdays. I think there is a reference to a scripture that says something about better is the day of ones death than the day of one's birth."

  "Attention to self" ... like, giving talks/having demonstrations/saying prayers at the Conventions and Assemblies, being hailed as a Circuit Overseer and having congregations encouraged not to miss even one opportunity to go out in service with you, being hailed as a District Overseer and honoring a humble congregation with hosting your august presence during District Conventions and Assemblies, being a guest speaker from Bethel, being a member of the Governing Body or a table-head at Bethel, you know ... taking the place of honor at meals and in the synagogues Kingdom Hall ....

  I dunno, erandir, I can't really imagine "attention to self" being hard to strike down for any ex-JW.

  What do you think?

  Mary,

  That was an interesting snippet from the Orthodox Jew. I'm sure you know that the perspective of an Orthodox Rabbi will mean little to a JW, especially since a JW would flatly reject the notion that Job 1:1-4 was a later addition to the text.

  The NWT is especially conducive to the recommended line of questioning regarding the meaning of "his day," and that is the translation 99 out of 100 JWs prefer.

  But, as I stated, it is unnecessary to even mention Job's children. I would recommend letting them find out about that after it won't really matter to them anymore (once they are also ex-JWs).

  Listener and steve2,

  Nice points on Anniversary and Baby Showers.

  proplog2,

  Great line of reasoning! I think most JWs brains would explode from the exertion of considering the difference between weak and strong evidence, so they probably wouldn't even get to hear most of it. But it is a great line of reasoning.

  Forum,

  I just hope this thread will help posters here to reason with their JW family successfully, in a non-confrontational way. All the added posts are most welcome.

  I find that I am completely clueless about common customs. I am still making a Christmas card list (for the first time ever, thanks to AK-Jeff) and now I realize I need to start a database of special days of relatives and friends (birthdays, Anniversaries, etc.) because remembering and caring about these things matters to them, even though I am struggling to connect with caring about this sort of thing for myself.

  Have I ever mentioned how much I hate what that religion has done to me, how odd it has made me? I am socially inept.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
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  AK - Jeff

  I am still making a Christmas card list (for the first time ever, thanks to AK-Jeff)

  And my name better be on it, buddy. LOL

  Hope all is well for you. And socially inept - nope - not as far I am concerned. We just got started late is all, my friend.

  Jeff
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  TheListener

  From New Advent Encyclopedia:

  So also in the Hieronymian Martyrologium (c. 590), besides the constantly recurring natale applied to the festivals of martyrs we have, e.g. on 2 August, In antiochia natalis reliquiarum Stephani protomartyris et diac. None the less a certain stress was often laid in Christiansermons and in mortuary inscriptions upon the idea that the day of a man's death was his birthday to a new life. Thus St. Ambrose (Serm. 57, de Depos. St. Eusebii) declares that "the day of our burial is calledour birthday (natalis), because, being set free from the prison of our crimes, we are born to the liberty of the Saviour", and he goes on "wherefore this day is observed as a great celebration, for it is in truth a festival of the highest order to be dead to our vices and to live to righteousness alone." And we find such inscriptions as the following

  PARENTE FILIO MERCURIO FECE
  RUNT QUI VIXIT ANN V ET MENSES VIII
  NATUS IN PACE ID FEBR

  Where "natus in pace" clearly refers to eternal rest. So again Origen had evidently some similar thought before him when he insists that "of all the holy people in the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great rejoicings over the day on which they were born into this world below" (Origen, in Levit., Hom. VIII, in Migne P.G., XII, 495). Naturally a certain amount of confusion resulted from this use of the same word natalis sometimes to signify natural birth, sometimes the passage to a better life. The former was consequently often distinguished as natale genuinum, natale de nativitate, the latter as natale passionis or de passione, sometimes abbreviated as N.P.

  http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10709a.htm