because you can always add another number. Well, the bible says God had no begining, if this is true than an infinite number if events would have to take place before he created the heavens and the earth. You couldn't say that it was the first thing he did because if you went back to that point in time God would have still been there infinitely before that. So if an infinite amount of events had to take place before he created the universe he could not have created it, no more than we can count to infinity. So either God didn't create the Universe or God is not eternal. Any thoughts?
you can't count to infinity...
by return visitor 24 Replies latest jw friends
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bigdreaux
let me do another bong hit, then i'll get back to you. great point.
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eclipse
Is it not possible that God just existed in nothingness before he created? Or is that too simplistic of an explanation?
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return visitor
eclipse,
if that's the case, for how long did he exist in nothingness. If always, than an infinite amount of time would have to pass before creation, Unless by nothingness you mean that time didn't exist either. Then to say God is eternal makes no sense, since time itself would have a begining.
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thebiggestlie
what about the idea of god existing outside of the concept of time....although that would imply that god at some point created time which implies an effect...we all know that "cause and effect" are tenants that require time to be functional...so...i dont know haha
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eclipse
RV,
Yes, all good points,
I was just stating that simplistic explanation on the basis that god is all powerful, and therefore can exist in a timeless nothingness....he could theoretically destroy everything and bring it all back over and over again...
but that is all based on the premise that god even exists at all....being the devil's, oops, I mean, god's advocate
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eclipse
great seeing you again, thebiggestlie, and good points.
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John Doe
because you can always add another number. Well, the bible says God had no begining, if this is true than an infinite number if events would have to take place before he created the heavens and the earth. You couldn't say that it was the first thing he did because if you went back to that point in time God would have still been there infinitely before that. So if an infinite amount of events had to take place before he created the universe he could not have created it, no more than we can count to infinity. So either God didn't create the Universe or God is not eternal. Any thoughts?
In mathematics, infinity is dealt with all the time--we have the concepts of limits and infinte series just to name a couple. Imaginary and irrational numbers don't exist, yet math deals with them every day. Simply because we can't quantify something does not mean it is not useful or usable in a finite human understanding.
Your logic would be similar to the following fallacious argument. Since the series limit as n -> infinity of 1/(2^n), that is 1/2 + 1/4 +1/8 + 1/16 +....will continue forever, then the number 1 doesn't exist, because no matter how many terms in the series you add, you can never get to 1. However, the difference between the sums in the series and 1 is smaller with each additional term, and the limit as n-> infinity of 1/(2^n) is 1. Those are my initial thoughts.
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Terry
Your logic would be similar to the following fallacious argument. Since the series limit as n -> infinity of 1/(2^n), that is 1/2 + 1/4 +1/8 + 1/16 +....will continue forever, then the number 1 doesn't exist, because no matter how many terms in the series you add, you can never get to 1. However, the difference between the sums in the series and 1 is smaller with each additional term, and the limit as n-> infinity of 1/(2^n) is 1. Those are my initial thoughts.
You are dividing up the space between 0 and 1. There is no end to the number of divisions possible. As an asymptote on a graph, for example.
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John Doe
Terry, exactly. However, my point is that we can deal with the infinite in a finite way. The graph would be a horizontal asymtote, and as n gets large, would for all intents and purposes be a horizontal line--that is an infinite numer with a finite picture. Simply because we can't count to infinity does not mean we can't use infinity. Don't you think that's valid?
Well, perhaps not. Upon further examination, the series does imply having a beginning. Even if the beginning is completely arbitrary, it has to be named. I still don't think that the argument that god couldn't have created something if he is infiinite is valid. The argument would go against his being infinite, but then infinity is already beyond the scope or our perception--almost illogical in a sense.
Expanding the argument would apply to anything dealing with god--god couldn't have farted because he had to complete an infinte number of things before he farted, god couldn't have been Jesus because he would have had to complete an infinte number of things before he was Jesus, God can't exist because he would have had to have completed and infinite number of things before he existed, etc. This is not a valid argument. The import is not what the argument claims, but rather it is that he can't be infinite--an argument against anything being infinite. However, infinity can be implied to exist with any number of mathematical arguments.