by AuldSoul 70 Replies latest jw friends
smellsgood: Do you really have to barge in and start bellowing like a drunk Irishman?
Hey ... I'm an Irishman ... that was an insult ... Irishmen don't get drunk no matter how much they drink.
In answer to your question, the history of Terry's interaction with this forum would argue strongly in favor of a bellowed, "YES!!!"
AuldSoul . . .sorry, I cannot back up this post with Scripture, but I feel I must once again pass this on to all ( I've posted this twice in the two or so years I've been visiting this site ).
In 1980 I was partying with some friends and a fight broke out between a man and myself. I hurt him quite bad. He was able to find a handgun and as I faced him he shot me in the abdomen. He fled with his girlfriend. I was knocked to the floor by the impact of the bullet. I knew I was going to die for I had been shot with a .357 Magnum pistol, and nobody lives after being gut shot with one of those.
I really don't know why but I was not afraid to die, however, I did not want to die and so I prayed. I prayed for more time to live and I also prayed for the man that shot me. I asked God to forgive the man, for I did not want my death on his head when he stood before God at his death.
After I awoke in the hospital I naturally wanted to check out my wounds. The bullet, which was fired from point blank range, was such that it entered and exited me at an inexplicable angle. An angle where the gun could only have been fired from a height of 5-6 feet, which of course it was not.
My point is that because I asked God to forgive the man, He bestowed Grace on me and allowed me to live. And only through Divine Intervention did the bullet take the path that it did. God knew that I was going to pray to Him as I lay dieing; that is why He saved me.
I live with this experience daily; I have -except for this forum-only told eight people. I know two for sure that believe me. And even after all these years I don't know what to do . . what to reallydo and how I am supposed to feel.
In reading your post I found several Scriptures that spoke directly to me and my experience. Thank you very much.
Paul
Thanks for sharing that, Paul. Opening yourself up like that on this forum can be dangerous, with people like ... well, with hopeless and crotchety skeptics around in such abundance.
Thank you very much.
You're more than welcome, Paul. I was hoping someone would be able to sift through the the crap slathered liberally onto this thread and see something that would help them. I think some people are just hopeless, and somehow convince themselves they'll be happier in life if they get other people to join them in hopelessness.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
Grace allows us to be forgiven for anything we've done.
It allows us to always make Jesus our foundation upon which we build (1 Cor. 3).
Grace seems to unfair to us as humans (Jesus parable of the field workers: Luke 20)
I have heard people say "well, I wouldn't have gotten so angry with that person if I saw some consideration on their part or some sign that they were sorry".
But, in point of fact that statement puts us as a human in the judgement seat - and we don't get that seat, we don't get to judge. All we can do is apply forgiveness and grace the way that it has been applied to us.
If the person we apply it to continues to sin then grace will be applied even more fully (Romans 5:20) as long as the individual isn't taking advantage of grace to sin purposefully.
It can be frustrating and even unbearable to forgive someone for something very very wicked that has caused pain in our life. But, if we are to receive God's forgiveness then we must do it. (forgiving someone doesnt' mean we make them our best friend or have a relationship with them - it means to me that we let go of the anger and need to avenge ourselves on that person).
When we ask ourselves, what would Jesus do, we usually come to the conclusion that he would forgive the person, perhaps with some timely advice. What we want to be careful of is that we don't judge someone and withhold our forgivenss based on our judgement.
OMG!!!!
My post reads like an old 5 minute talk.
The cycle of repentance and forgiveness is one of my long-studied subjects. I have a personal interest because of the use that abusers make of it to regularly excuse and continue their behavior. Must the victim regularly "forgive and forget", as in "If you are a Christian you have to forgive me"? Where is the balance?
What has helped me most of all is understanding the fuller Jewish model of reparations. From the attached article:
Teshuvá is the key concept in the rabbinic view of sin, repentance, and forgiveness. The tradition is not of one mind on the steps one must take to repent of one's sins. However, almost all agree that repentance requires five elements: recognition of one's sins as sins (hakarát ha-chét'), remorse (charatá), desisting from sin (azivát ha-chét'), restitution where possible (peira'ón), and confession (vidúi).
http://www.crosscurrents.org/blumenthal.htm
...now grace. That is another topic altogether. I think the Witness description is weak.
Surely the whole point of a metaphor is that it breaks the rules? The only reason the phrase "faith is a verb" is meaningful is because "faith" is of course not a verb (although, to those who believe "faith is a verb", the concept of "faith" would be better described through verbs than nouns). The only people who would appreciate the metaphor enough to use it are the people who understand the grammar behind it .
I think this sums it up rather nicely.
If you really believe this belief is required of Christians no wonder you aren't one. That is a stream of nonsense. And it comes from your foolish (or angry) brain, not mine. You'll not impose that senseless tripe on me and ask me to swallow it. You again, without basis, assert several facts as though everyone should know them. You base them on nothing but your word, which means exactly sh-- to me. Citing Catholicism as an authority in religious matters will likewise fall flat with me, especially if they tend to support your dismal and hopeless view of the Christ figure and of Christianity.
Here is the problem with your premise.
1.You don't want inclusive views. This prevents free discussion. This omits possible falsifications which invalidate foundational concepts.
2.You ignore the very idea that subjects such as Grace and Forgiveness are HISTORICAL and have never been ESTABLISHED as data; only opinion.
3.You represent an attitude which is personal, vicious, fulminating and infantile. This makes "forgiven" sinners such as yourself appear to be not much of a prize should we choose associates based on God's grace standards.
4.You don't seem to be able to actually discuss IDEAS.
Other than that, you seem to be in pretty good shape where bully-boys gather and knock heads.
Being an unpleasant oaf does not win converts.
Now that we've had our preliminary pissing contest...
Consider these points:
1.Forgiveness under Judaism and under Christianity representd procedural behaviors
2.Behaviors stem from decisions which come from personal motivation.
3.What state of mind (if any) makes a sinner a candidate for God's forgiveness if not ACTIVE CONSIDERATION OF PERSONAL STATUS vis a vis God's revealed standards?
4.Without consequent BEHAVIOR which represents motives informed by God's standards how will an unrepentant sinner and an unforgiven sinner be distinguishable from a repentant/forgiven one? (Hint: does the scripture say "by their fruits you shall know them"?)
Christianity has THEORIES about what forgiveness means. Christianity has THEORIES about what grace means. These theories under Catholicism, Protestantism, Calvinism have informed YOUR STATE OF MIND. That is why I quoted them.
It is naive to assume the cherry picking through scripture settles the matter.
A "verb" without action is metaphorically identical to faith without works, by the way.
You don't want inclusive views.
True. I freely admit that the BIG HUGE SIGN on the front door means, "Atheistic Propagandizers Not Welcome In This Thread." That would mean exclusive views only, and anyone who says otherwise is lying.
Thanks for admitting so readily that any views inclusive of more than Christian and/or Scriptural views are off-topic. I appreciate your candor.
Is there something wrong with having a thread or two on the forum that is not welcoming to atheistic propaganda?
You ignore the very idea that subjects such as Grace and Forgiveness are HISTORICAL and have never been ESTABLISHED as data; only opinion.
You don't know what I think or feel about ... well, anything. This is just more of your same old "HEEEEE-HAAAaaaawwww!!! HEEEEEEE-HAAAaaaaawwwww!!!!"
All you KNOW from this thread is that I wanted THIS topic to be free of any but Christian and Scriptural views. ANY motives you assign to that request are purely conjecture on your part, which I find fascinating from someone who prides themselves on recommending a very different approach. You are a braying donkey: stubborn, noisy and you refuse to comply with even the simplest reasonable request.
Being an unpleasant oaf does not win converts.
Look in the mirror, jackass.
These theories under Catholicism, Protestantism, Calvinism have informed YOUR STATE OF MIND.
Only to the degree that these "THEORIES" impacted the Bible's usage of the words "grace" and "forgiveness". I have never considered these theoretical sources. Again, you engage in speculative assumption about me. Again, you are grossly in error.
A "verb" without action is metaphorically identical to faith without works, by the way.
Ahhh! So, you found a dictionary, discovered I was right, and now appeal to UNREAL metaphor to support your ignorant statement that faith is a verb? How precious! And you accuse others of intellectual dishonesty? Tsk.
Having faith (having being the operative verb) results in work in much the same way setting an alarm clock (setting being the operative verb) results in alarm. "Alarm clock" is not a verb because of what it causes, not even metaphorically speaking. Faith is not a verb, not even in metaphor. You were blatantly WRONG, without qualification or surrender. I can't believe you are so desperate to affirm a falsehood on a point so easily proven. HEEEEE-HAAAaaawwww!!!!
Terry,
What smellsgood said.
Or, here's a spin-off from it.
If I started a thread asking for input on some aspect of Buddhism and asked only for the perspective of Buddhist's, would you honor that? Or would you insist on logically blowing away my Buddhist beliefs.
Why not let Auld Soul have his thread since he so clearly stated at the outset what the parameters of the discussion should be.
Open Mind
(edited to correctly spell Auld Soul's name)
