Flood of Gilgamesh written long before Noahs flood. Look at how simular!!

by Lady Liberty 59 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • sinis
    sinis
    Sinis,

    CALM DOWN!

    i wasn't even refering to you. My comment was aimed at JCanon, and other, your posted clearly wasn't making any apologist claims from what i can see.

    However claims of something happening every 3600 years, what has that got to do with anything? that would at best take us back to the susposed exodus?, so i am not quite aure what your on about there.

    Local flooding on a large scale i agree with you 100% is it possible that a previous much larger local flood build the myth...quite possible. So it seesm we agree pretty much, so i dont see why you took i was having a go a you.

    Also i am aware of how earth was tranlated in genises,erets (eh'-rets) - common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X natins, way, + wilderness, world.

    SO may be things are cleared up a little now

    I shouldn't have swore. Sorry. I had a really bad day, and just snapped, no excuses (even though I just gave one ). Will clean up my post. Thanks. -Sorry

  • wherehasmyhairgone
    wherehasmyhairgone
    First, I'm likely the formost Biblical scholar in the world at this point.

    That is probably the best quote i have ever seen. But at the same time your validity in this claim is akin to the bibles claims, and it ( The bible) has gotten away with outlandish claims for centuries.

    I understand you argument. But it's mute when you consider divine intervention, right?

    Never a truer word spoken, I will concede with you there my friend, once we invoke miracles, suspension of natural laws, invisible men in the sky, fairies and ghouls and goblins. We can pack up our collective tents of evidence logic, reason and rationality and go home. What troubles me is once you open the door to the groundless belief in miracles you open a flood gate than has to allow everything from fortune telling to spirit guides, and to personal experiences of God.

    Thankfully our time is ruled but reason and logic ( most of the times) but it wasn't that long ago when people thought a sneeze was expelling a demon. Burning witches made sense, and (insert favourite deity here) made direct contact to reveal a truth to an individual that always seem to coinicide with their designs and plans of their own.

    God really is the lazy way to explain things...don't understand how something could have been possible..God did it, its kinda like a get out of jail for free card.

    But then of course if God did it, Who did god?

    regards

    steve

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    Never a truer word spoken, I will concede with you there my friend, once we invoke miracles, suspension of natural laws, invisible men in the sky, fairies and ghouls and goblins. We can pack up our collective tents of evidence logic, reason and rationality and go home. What troubles me is once you open the door to the groundless belief in miracles you open a flood gate than has to allow everything from fortune telling to spirit guides, and to personal experiences of God.

    Not quite. I'm only opening that door enough to confirm what the Bible says. "ghouls and goblins" sound like people coming back from the dead and that is not what the Bible teaches. So just because the Bible claims God has great powers and caused a flood doesn't mean it supports ghouls and ghosts and all that other stuff. You're just trying to make a straw-man's argument work. Inflating everything to make is less believable. All those other stories about the supernatural have to stand on their own merit. Thus every story you can event about the supernatural and aliens and everything is not what I'm introducing. I'm introducing ANGELS, MIRACLES by an all-powerful God, and some miracles occuring in connection with raising the dead, destroying Sodom and Gomorrah (which we have evidence of), the healing that Jesus did, etc. Specific things only the Bible mentions. Ghouls and goblins are not included but are what YOU need to exaggerate this. Yes, I opened the door, but not that wide! Show a little responsiblity here. (smile) Thanks!

    JCanon

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    And let's not for get that when God destroys people for not beleiving, He "Loves them", total horse shit nonsense! a real contridiction to say the least. So the conclusion: "You better beleive or else you die!" What a petty God you beleive in.

    Well, that's your opinion. But let's step back a bit. The Bible talks about this God and it says he is a god of vengeance ("vengeance belongs to God" and "a JEALOUS god."

    Those are the realities of his personality. But since he IS God, and you don't have life without this god, then at some point, we might want to decide to try and cooperate, right?

    Now let's face it. The BASICs are that God is saying to EVERYBODY from Jesus on Down: IT'S MY WAY, OR THE HIGHWAY!

    Now you may not like that choice, but that's the reality. That's like God saying in another way: YOU CAN EITHER TAKE IT, OR LEAVE IT!

    I decided to take it! Because that's what I liked anyway. You know, some people (like Satan) say that evil makes us appreciate good better. Wars help us appreciate peace. Or sickness helps us appreciate being well. All that "dualism" crap! Well I don't think so. I don't think you need those hardships to appreciate God. I don't think violence and wars and all that are necessary to enjoy life. I don't need those "enhancements." So I like this choice. Everlasting life living in a world without Satan, or rebel and join Satan, just because you don't like being given an ultimatum? Is that it? You're protesting God's RIGHT to decide who he wants to give life to as a GIFT?

    You are either very brave or very dumb. Or both! I don't get it.

    In the meantime, I can see this God has a TEMPER, so I'm pretend I'm smart and lay low. I'm not going to "incite him to jealousy" and get thrown into the lake of fire, right?

    That's my position.

    Satan wants people to take and legal and moral stand and put their life on the line to send God a message. Well guess what? God and Christ have their own reply to that message, and they have the last word. ALWAYS. One day Satan will be gone... and forgotten!

    JCanon

  • sir82
    sir82
    First, I'm likely the formost Biblical scholar in the world at this point.

    !!!

    Is the poster "Scholar" aware of this?

    Those "celebrated Watchtower scholars" have met their match!

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Hi Sinus. It just occurred to me that the glaciers themselves were created at the time of the flood!

    According to Johnsen in "Irregular glacial interstadials recorded in a new Greenland ice core "(peer reviewed) they have ice cores dating back over 40,000 years with no evidence of a flood on a major scale, I realise that what you are proposing is more localized ,but still would represent a major section of Greenland/Europe and down to the middle east. there is no evidence of anything that catastrofic happen in the last 40k years, i the way of a flood.

    They have found, for instance, mamoths frozen in the ice that was still edible after thousands of years and with food still in their mouth. That suggests a flood and then quick freezing! But then I was thinking about the glaciers. I wondered how they developed and presumed there were just periods of really, really cold temperatures and the glaciers built up over years of snowing. But what if it got cold initially at the poles? After the first rain fell from those thick clouds, then the freeze at the poles occurred and thus while it was raining on most of the planet, it was actually snowing after a while at the poles. That would explain the glaciers being so huge and piling up to the tops of the mountains.

    What do you think?

    As far as the rings showing over 40,000 years. Scientists are presuming the rings are "annual" rings. But who knows what phenomenon was going on when these initial changes were taking place? We don't know the specifics of the phenomenon of the flood, or even if it was controlled in some ways to get the end result we have today. My presumption is that those various levels they see as annual might have been seasonal for a different climatic cycle from earlier times. Even the glaciers from the "Ice Age" suggests the climate was different back then than now.

    Here's a quote from the Society:

    9

    In the days of Noah, the Bible says, a great flood covered earth’s highest mountains and destroyed all human life that was outside the huge ark that Noah built. (Genesis 7:1-24) Many have scoffed at this account. Yet seashells are found on high mountains. And further evidence that a flood of immense proportions occurred in the not-too-distant past is the great number of fossils and carcasses deposited in icy, mucky dumps. TheSaturdayEveningPost noted: "Many of these animals were perfectly fresh, whole and undamaged, and still either standing or at least kneeling upright. . . . Here is a really shocking—to our previous way of thinking—picture. Vast herds of enormous, well-fed beasts not specifically designed for extreme cold, placidly feeding in sunny pastures . . . Suddenly they were all killed without any visible sign of violence and before they could so much as swallow a last mouthful of food, and then were quick-frozen so rapidly that every cell of their bodies is perfectly preserved." 8

    10

    This fits in with what happened in the great Flood. The Bible describes it in these words: "All the springs of the vast watery deep were broken open and the floodgates of the heavens were opened." The downpour "overwhelmed the earth," being accompanied no doubt by freezing winds in the polar regions. (Genesis 1:6-8; 7:11, 19) There, the temperature change would be the most rapid and drastic. Various forms of life were thus engulfed and preserved in frozen muck. One such may have been the mammoth that was uncovered by excavators in Siberia and that is seen in the accompanying illustration. Vegetation was still in its mouth and stomach, and its flesh was even edible when thawed out.

    So, clearly, there are the Creationists coming back with their own evidence.

    I believe I read some information about ice core counting in the WTS publications but couldn't find it quickly.

    JCanon

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Only it's not quite "blind" faith anymore, because we have evidence of God beyond the scriptures now.

    Oh, please...do tell. I can hardly wait to hear this. Or should I say "see" this. Or is this one of those deals where you say the "Chasm is too great for YOU to cross"? I believe that in the real world where I live, that is called a "copout". Please "Foremost Bible Scholar in the World", expound on your vast knowledge of biblical truths and share with one and all of us this exciting proof of God.

    CCS

    Right. Some have more evidence of God up front, others will have to wait till Armageddon. He gives things to his own followers first just as Jesus spoke in parables so that outsiders would not understand what he was saying. But I acknowledge that as subjective as it may be for us who see these modern miracles or the correct fulfilment of Bible prophecy, that others who do not have this experience will still have a greater basis for doubt. That's a given.

    JCanon

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Here's something from the net about ice core dating. This is some of the Creationists' reply:

    Keep in mind that the uniformitarian hypothesis is built on a premise void of the worldwide catastrophe that happened about 4,500 years ago – the Noah flood. (See “Noah’s Ark – Fact or Fiction?” and “Noah II,” on this website.) Atmospheric scientist Michael J. Oard was published in the July 2003 issue of Impact which is published by ICR – the Institute for Creation Research. The following excerpts are from his article titled, “Are Polar Ice Sheets Only 4,500 Years Old?”

      There certainly is an alternative explanation for the origin of the Antarctic and Greenland Ice Sheets within the creationist time frame. To start with, the volume of the Antarctic Ice Sheet is 26.4 million cubic kilometers with an average depth of 1900 meters. The corresponding figures for the Greenland Ice Sheet are a volume of 2.9 million cubic kilometers and an average depth of 1600 meters. All this ice represents an average depth of 3.1 kilometers if spread over the entire United States. But, this amount of ice does not demand an inordinate amount of time to accumulate. At the present average precipitation rate, assuming no melting, the Antarctic Ice Sheet would build up to its present height in only 10,000 years while the Greenland Ice Sheet would build in only 5,000 years. In the creationist model, the bulk of the ice sheets built up during a 700-year post-Flood Ice Age with much higher precipitation, represented by the lower half of the GRIP and GRIP2 cores. Further accumulation of snow and ice after the Ice Age would have increased the volume upwards to the present day.

    Again Oard weighs in concerning sub-annual layers:

      In the creationist model, the well-defined annual layers would be obvious near the surface, but they would be sub-annual deeper down, the number of sub-annual layers per year increasing with depth. It is known that sub-annual events show up within the top annual layers. These sub-annual signatures may be the result of individual storms, or they could be cycles of sunny, mild weather alternating with cool, stormy weather. These sub-annual layers can mimic annual layers in the measured variables. For instance, enough variability exists in the precipitation from some mid-latitude storms to account for the annual amplitude of the oxygen isotope ratio. In the uniformitarian model, it is assumed that storms and short weather cycles would be smoothed and obliterated deeper in the ice by compression and diffusion. However, in the creationist model, these sub-annual fluctuations would be expected to remain and be counted as “annual” by the uniformitarian scientists.

    Dust bands are assumed by the uniformitarians to be annual, but just like the varve, things aren’t always what they are assumed to be. Oard continues:

      Creationists, on the other hand, point out that much dust is known to have occurred in the Ice Age part of the Greenland Ice Sheet. When the atmosphere is loaded with dust, a storm can lay down multiple dust bands separated by less dusty ice. Showers in the precipitation sector would lay down variable amounts of dust in the snow. The finer the scale of measurement for this dust, the more oscillations in the dust will be detected. It is possible to pick up hundreds and perhaps thousands of dust wiggles in one year when measuring at a very fine scale.

    Finally, Oard writes:

      The bottom line in dating ice cores is really the assumed age of the ice sheets which is based on the time scale from deep-sea cores. The deep-sea time scale is built into the dating of the ice sheets by the use of flow models and time markers, which act as a first guess to the annual layer thickness. The flow model assumes the ice sheets have been more or less in equilibrium for millions of years. This first guess is used to determine the resolution of the measurements down the core, insuring that multiple measurements per annual layer are “counted.” No matter what resolution is used, the glaciologist is able to pick up oscillations in the data record that he assumes are annual but which might actually be sub-annual.
      The deep-sea core time scale is likewise built upon the assumption of the astronomical or Milankovitch theory of the Ice Age or ages that is far from proved. Antarctic ice cores are dated by this method, since the accumulation on this ice sheet is so low that annual layer dating cannot be applied, except in shallow coastal cores with higher snowfall. So, the 420,000 years obtained near the bottom of the Vostok ice core is based on preconceived ideas on the ages of ocean sediment, which is based on the astronomical theory of the Ice Age. In other words, the uniformitarian scientists date the ice sheets to hundreds of thousands of years because they believe the ice sheets are old to begin with. They have “proved” only what they have assumed!
        JCanon
      1. wherehasmyhairgone
        wherehasmyhairgone
        Not quite. I'm only opening that door enough to confirm what the Bible says.

        I wasn't suggestions you were claiming the existence of ghost and ghouls, and i wasn't making a straw man argument, My point is that if your gonna allow miracles which the only confirmation we have of such things are:

        a) eyewitness

        b) written stories about it

        Then you have no reason to reject the thousands of people each year that see ghosts, and the millions who claim to be in touch with the dead,

        Here's a quote from the Society:
        Many have scoffed at this account. Yet seashells are found on high mountains. And further evidence that a flood of immense proportions occurred in the not-too-distant past is the great number of fossils and carcasses deposited in icy, mucky dumps.Vast herds of enormous, well-fed beasts not specifically designed for extreme cold, placidly feeding in sunny pastures . . . Suddenly they were all killed without any visible sign of violence and before they could so much as swallow a last mouthful of food, and then were quick-frozen so rapidly that every cell of their bodies is perfectly preserved." 8

        This what annoys me so much about WTC their misrepintation of evidence and outright lies and exaggeration of the facts. where is the evidence of what the WETC stated above:

        1. 39 mammoths in total have been found in a frozen state. nearly all were rotted and had major signed of scavengers feeding of their bodies.

        2. All were in a state of decay before they were frozen.

        There are a number of reason that have been put forward on their deaths, here are some that i found

        • Sinking in muddy silt (Guthrie 1990, 7-24).
        • Drowning/burial in flash floods carrying a heavy load of silt.
        • Predation, followed by winter freezing, followed by burial in silt carried by snowmelt (Guthrie 1990, 81-113).
        • Fall in a landslide, as a thawed riverbank gives way under the animal's weight. The landslide and subsequent soil creep can bury and preserve the animal (Kurtén 1986, chap. 9).

        Secondly the WTC claim about shells being found at the top of the mountains showing a global flood, are laughable at the ignorance of that statement. anyone who understand the water cycle on earth knows exactly how Shell would come to be found on tops of mountains.

        Keep in mind that the uniformitarian hypothesis is built on a premise void of the worldwide catastrophe that happened about 4,500 years ago – the Noah flood. (See “Noah’s Ark – Fact or Fiction?” and “Noah II,” on this website.) Atmospheric scientist Michael J. Oard was published in the July 2003 issue of Impact which is published by ICR – the Institute for Creation Research. The following excerpts are from his article titled, “Are Polar Ice Sheets Only 4,500 Years Old?”

        I am not going to quote the whole article quoted, But seriously doesn't anyone else see the bade science going on here, they are shifting evidence to a convieniant starting point then build a case around. But has any work been done by creationists on this...no all they ever do is take other people work and misquote and misrepresent it to their own ends.

        They only have a point if you ignore ( which they do ) the other evidence showing the real age of the polar ice caps.

        Yes if you selective take your evidence, you can build a theory on anything, the real test only comes when you put that theory up for testing,

        Haven't you every wondered why creationist only publish on general public book or on a website, and never through the peer review way, and the few times they do, they are shown to have bad science, borrowed and misquoted others work.

        Isn't it strange that no creationist has put forweard a theroy of how things cam about yet? and Gen 1 & 2 is not a theory its a statement.

      2. the dreamer dreaming
        the dreamer dreaming

        there was definitely a major flood evidenced by 300 ft of silt that buried a city where babylon was later built... world wide? hardly, but enough to be well remembered by the only major civilzation on earth of that time...

        from science around the world there seems to be places like Austrialian out back where dry lake beds show no signs of being wet in over a million years.

        Sea shells on mountain tops are found but that seems they come from the obvious signs of that part of the mountain once being at or below sea level and later up ended, not because they were mountains covered by a world ocean.

        as for Genesis, its internal evidence shows it was written AFTER a king already existed in Israel... and likely by Hezikaih the reformer, not by Moses who likely was a mythical character.

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