Before I read the letters that will clarify the direction of the argument-
I appreciate how simple it is in ISOCF to define the hope that JW's
are taught: Serve the WTS and Jehovah will give you a beautiful home
near a stream with all the food you can eat, with no pain and sickness,
no stresses, no end. He will let you pet lions and kick beachballs
against elephants. You can get a perfect babe or hunk for a spouse
and enjoy your job. These are materialistic goals. The WTS teaches
people to make an organization rich so that the God of that organization
will be grateful and reward you in the future. Plus- if you don't do this,
the same God will destroy you and 99.9 % of the human population.
If you won't serve for the greed, then serve for the fear. You can always
easily fall back on these premises if you have face-to-face discussions
that bog down.
may need some help soon
by Missanna 51 Replies latest jw experiences
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OnTheWayOut
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drew sagan
Missanna
Her reply will be very simple and will follow something like this....
"I belive the JWs are Gods organization because they are the only ones that _________________"
I think it is very important you get what that ______________ is. I have found that each person has their own 'one thing' by which they are really attached to the JWs.
My mother in law is stuck on the idea of paradise. JWs must have the truth because they teach paradise earth in her mind. For many other people it may be the war issue, or the trinity, or God knows what else. The main point being that they all have something that they fell makes the JWs totally unique and special.
The elder that I was talking to told me he knew the JWs where Gods organization because they seemed better than anybody else and where producing 'fruit'. I knew I had his attention and so I ready a Randy Waters article verbatim about how that verse about 'bearing fruit' is often misapplied and then showed him the fruit it was talking about it false prophecy, not getting members! It seemed to have a good effect.
Understanding what really hangs people up can be a good thing. You also did a good thing by just standing up for yourself. Call it like it is! I said the same exact thing about emotional blackmale to my in-laws. -
a friend
Sounds like you have all this figured out and are handling this just fine. We'll help if you need, but you seem to doing fine with your responses. Good job!!
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Shawn10538
Priceless!
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IsaacJS2
I don't know if this will help, but my article on the WTS biblical proofs can be found at http://atheism.about.com/od/jehovahswitnesses/a/SixProofs.htm.
I also posted another version elsewhere on JWD. It's not as current, but you might look for that one as well. I think it should be under "Six Biblical Proofs" or something like that.
IsaacJ
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Missanna
Ok so this is what happend... :) my sister wrote....
Ok here are my reasons and don't just push them to the side as my "beliefs", truly think about it and be open minded.That being said there are so many reasons that show that it is and I'll try to remember them. These are all my personal reasons for believing ok. I think dad sent you a watchtower and if it's the one I'm thinking of it was the one about "is the bible practical for our day" If so the articles in them were very good. And yes I can understand how someone can think that the organization is telling us what they think and we read it and believe all they say. That may be true for some but the correct way to do it is to look up all the scriptures and see why they believe this or that. That's why it says what it does at 2 Cor. 13: 5 to "keep testing whether you are in the faith"
First off the Bible clearly shows that after the Israelites left Jehovah he formed a new covenant with the 144,000, and that other sheep would join them and that they would be organized to do the will of Jehovah on earth. We have the same arrangement today as they did back then with the elders and governing body and the faithful and discreet slave. It wasn't all made up, it is how the Bible showed the first century christians did it and that it was God's arrangement. That there were physical congregations a group of people on earth doing Jehovah's will and that they met at congregations to recieve training and encouragement. If you want scriptures to support that I'll send them because there are many.
Second, the main focus when Jesus was on earth and of the first century christians , was preaching the good news of Gods kingdom. And Jesus instructed his followers to do the same. He did it in an organized way. Sent ones out in two's, gave reports, had certain territories, and said that the good news would be preached in all the inhabited earth. Jehovah's witnesses are the only ones, the ONLY ones that are doing that. And what JW's preach is my third reason.
Third. Go back to the basics. One of the fundamental teachings of the Bible is very clear. And that is that we do not have a part of us that lives on after death, I can't think of the term I wanted to use but you know what I mean. The Bible very clearly says that there is no life after death. That we are sleeping. Jehovah's Witnesses are again the ONLY ones that teach that. That is the one that stands out to me. No other religion on earth teaches this and it is clearly stated in the Bible. When you were associated with the congregation surely you saw that all the basic teachings of the Bible that were so easy to see and understand are not seen or understood by ones in other religions. Such as Hellfire, life after death, the resurrection hope, the paradise hope, no part of the world as far as politics and such. John 6: 66-69
Fourth, I'm sure you remember the scripture that say "By this all will know that you are my disciples because you have love among yourselves". That is one of my main reasons for believing. I just look at the local congregation, the surrounding ones, the congregations worldwide. Where else do nearly 7 million people not only have the same beliefs from the Bible, but that truly care about and love one another despite imperfections. By growing up in Mineola it's easy to think of the brothers we knew there as being the organization instead of seeing the organization as a whole. And thinking it is these men with imperfect personalities that are making the organization grow instead of seeing that it is truly god. My personal experience is this: firstly about dad. Dad has done some terrible things. All of us kids had to deal with it, we all experienced it. I know he is a mentally ill person and that he doesn't act like a rational person most of the time. I know that and you know that. And I wasn't entirely happy with how the elders dealt with him. They are human beings and are imperfect but that aside, what else could they do? He was removed as an elder and a ministerial servant, and they visit him on a regular basis. Like I said I know he is mentally ill, but the brothers don't live with him. They can only act on what they know. And they acted on what we told them. Again he was removed. We all went through alot and continue to do so when it comes to him. We have a dysfunctional family, many do and that can't be fixed sometimes. Each of us has to render an account for himself so I worry about me and my spirituality and know that Jehovah will deal with dad as he sees fit. How I deal with it is by reading the scriptures at Ps. 27:10 and Mark 10:29,30. especially Mark because it says that anyone who has lost fathers or mothers and so on would get them one hundredfold. And I feel I have. In dad's case I don't feel an empty hole because there are so many brothers that I consider my spiritual fathers. Jehovah has given me everything I could ever need and more through the congregation. Same with Jonathon. I know you've mentioned that the elders should have done more. What more could they do? He was disfellowshipped and they were there if we needed them . They always listened when I talked to them about it. When I had a bad day or whatever, I had a few brothers that I felt comfortable with that always listened and encouraged me. They can't help if we don't ask for it. Anyway, I've gotten off subject. Continuing on....
Fifth, Jehovah's Witnesses are.....Jehovah's Witnesses. We use his name. And we stress the importance of using that name. Most in other religions have never even heard his name.
Sixth, All the teachings of Jehovah's witnesses are based on the Bible. ALL. That's why we are always encouraged to read the Bible ourselves and to look up the scriptures in articles so we can understand personally the Bible's teachings on matters.
Seventh, What other organization, religious or otherwise can function solely on contributions that are given out of the goodness of peoples hearts. We don't pay the elders or the governing body or the pioneers or anyone else. What other organization does the work these ones do without being paid?
Eighth , Despite persecutions - the world wars, the concentration camps the continuing effort to stop the preaching work - It hasn't stopped. Not only that but it has grown significantly and continues to grow. Ps. 41:11 ; 56:11
Those are the reasons I can think of that make me personally believe that this is Jehovah'e organization despite the fact that we are all imperfect humans. I remember an illustration used at a convention. If you have a big diamond, and you look at it under a microscope and most likely you will see little scratches and flaws. But would you throw it away because of that? By stepping back and looking at it you can see the value of it. Just like stepping back and looking at the organization, how beautiful it is and how it clearly stands out.
I put a lot of effort in to this letter and my fingers are tired so please appreciate that lol. And Please do look up the scriptures I put in and if you want scriptural proof for anything else I stated or otherwise just ask and I will give it to you.
Thanks for taking the time to read it and to talk to me about it.
Love,
Becky -
quietlyleaving
wow - your sis has a lot of propaganda going on in her reply.
Don't know if this will help, but what I'm finding useful at the moment is to discuss with my relatives how people like Hitler and communist regimes used propaganda to twist the truth and manipulate people. I am forced to steer clear of 'truth' issues - so am trying to get them to think - don't know if I'm succeeding but time will tell.
best of luck to you
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cognizant dissident
Well, Misanna, your sister sounds like she does love you and care about you. At least she was respectful in her letter and validated your experience with your father even if she is choosing to handle it a different way. She also stuck to doctrinal arguments mostly and didn't go for personally attacking you or insulting you which is more than a lot of older, supposedly more mature JW's (like your father) can manage to do. I think there is hope there for having some kind of mutually respectful relationship in the future. It always amazes me how the crumbiest parents often end up with the nicest, smartest, kids. (I'm including myself in that analysis )
Her arguments should be quite easy to answer. I'll leave that to you and much less lazy JWD members. I'm way to lazy to look up stuff and reference it. I'm always available for encouraging pep talks, though.
Cog
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Missanna
this is what i wrote back i'm pretty proud of myself ... tee hee
Becky,
Before I start telling you my beliefs, let me make this clear. I have no problem
with the witnesses I know that for the most part, they are moral, god fearing, loving
individuals. It is the leadership that lies to and misdirects them that I take issue
with.
Now, if I may, let me use your diamond illustration in another way. Lets say, you
save for years for a diamond ring. You put every penny you could on the side saving
for it. When you have enough money you go shopping. You walk into a store and the
shop manager is very nice he smiles and jokes with you the entire time you are there.
You take your life savings and invest in a beautiful shiny diamond ring. For years
it is your pride and joy...you never take it off. You proudly show your ring off
to all your friends. You love all the remarks you get. You love how it shines in
the sun. Now, one day you go to get it resized. You take it to a jeweler. He informs
you, after inspecting it... that not only is your diamond man made but it is full
of flaws and basically worthless. Would you feel cheated and lied to? I know I would.
This is what happened to me... until I actually started doing research, I thought
the organization was as perfect as you can get. I was happy with my shiny diamond.
It wasn't until I had the guts to research what I was taught until I learned
the truth.
the watchtower has a strangle hold on it's members. they demand unquestioned
obedience. they expect you to except what you are taught as god's word. also
they do not allow you to question anything and expect you to just study from their
literature. They are fearful hat if people woke up and researched what they were
taught that they would see behind the smoke screen. Believe me they know the real
truth is out here and is easy to verify. Why do you think they demonize ex members
and independent bible study. They want to control everything you think and learn.
they know if you start researching on your own you would come to the same conclusion
I did. If you don't believe what I am saying all you have to do is look at the
kingdom ministry for September of this year. When you get it, look at the question
box. This is the start of a campaign to further isolate witnesses from the information
that proves the watchtower society as false. They tell you not to research the authenticity
of the new world translation. It tells you not to discuss bible matters in a group
that they can not control. They basically tell you to shut up and eat the food you
are given. Is this biblical? Didn't the bible tell you to make sure of all things?
Weren't the Beroeans commended for checking things on their own? Nowhere does
the bible say to blindly follow men. In fact, it warns against it. I can site the
proper scriptures if you are interested.
Now you are probably saying Anna's spiritually weak and clueless but I can honestly
say I have never had a better relationship with Jehovah.
What follows is not my opinion it is hard Fact! I urge u to find anything I say
False. I'm not going to bombard you with information, I will only touch on a
few things and ,if you wish later, I will give you all the info that I have. Remember
truth is stable and verifiable... it is not a feeling. I will challenge each of
your points. Then, I will make a few of my own. The first point you made was about
the new covenant. Before you read this, please read Matt. 24:45-47. The parable
of the FDS ,Faithful and Discrete Slave, is pivotal to the Watchtower. It is used
to justify why a small group of Christians are the only people god has dealt with
in the last 2,000 yrs. and he uses them to direct his organization.
The Watchtower society makes the claim that in Christian times Jesus established
a FDS to look after his organization. The slave has continued to do so uninterrupted
for the last 2,000 yrs and will do so until Armageddon.
However, there is not a single historical person or group that can be identified
as the slave. The vagueness of this parable allows it to fit preconceived notions.
Originally it was thought to have been a single person... Pastor Russell. As the
appointed slave, Russell directed the domestics immediately prior to the second
coming.
When the 1914 Armageddon prophecy failing to be fulfilled a new interpretation or
(new light) became essential. Now the single slave has been described as a group
of men.
The current watchtower understanding confusingly claims the slave and the domestics
are both the same group. The 144,000 are the slave as a whole, yet, individually
the same 144,000 are the domestics that as a group, they rule over. Reference the
May 15 1995 watchtower pg. 16 paragraph 4.
(On a side note, if you decide to read this, read par. 5 and know that the bible
study classes they praise here are being banned in a few weeks)
Anyway, in reality the watchtower organization does not operate the way this watchtower
says it does. The majority of the 144000 do not contribute to the doctrines, rules,
or procedures of the org. Most articles are written by the "other sheep"
and are authorized by the governing body.
For the watchtower to be classified as the slave, it is fundamental that a group
or groups of people have taught the same things as the society for the last 2,000
yrs. There would need to be a chain of people from Christ's time to today that
were:
Anti trinity
Used Jehovah's name
Did not believe in hell or immortality of the soul
Did not participate in war
Did not engage in idolatry or spiritism
Excepted the ransom
and Preached.
There is no proof that there is an unbroken chain from Jesus' time to today
that taught the societies doctrine. So no offense but some of the other claims you
have made (#2,#3, and #5) are mute. I'm sorry, but if the 144,000 claims are
false these do not matter. If you wish I will address these ,point by point, but
I feel like I am running on and we'll move on.
In my other letter I addressed point 4 about loving one another. Let me ask you
something, is this true unconditional love? I ask you to read Matt 4:43-48 and 1
Cor. 13:4-7. I personally try to live my life according to this. Witnesses however
will toss you to the side the minute you do not think like them. Even if you are
a good moral person that loves Jehovah, if you don't obediently follow the organization,
you are nothing. I'm sorry but this is not true scriptural love.
As for the statement "all your teaching are bible based" let me remind
you, every religion claims that. The bible is subjective and is open to many interpretations.
I mean, do you think there is one Christian religion that doesn't make this
claim? Just because you say it doesn't, make it true.
The point that you survive solely on donations is a laughable point. most churches
(I'll exclude the Catholics) operate in this manner. If you pride yourself on
this, you need to ask why the society is having to sell off property left and right.
No, they are not getting ready for Armageddon. Ask yourself "if we're so
generous, why all the real state sales in New York"? If you are interested,
I have the answer to this also.
Your last point is about being persecuted. Many other groups and religions have
had their fair share of this also. Look at the Jews they have been persecuted for
years. Hitler tried to wipe them off the face of the earth. Anti-Semitism has run
ramped for years. Yet they thrive and prosper.
Phew... my fingers are getting tired hahahaha if you made it this far I want to
point out some things of my own.
#1 Jerusalem was not destroyed in 607 b.c.e. I offer you a challenge. Prove this.
This is a fundamental teaching of the organization and has zero proof, but, a mountain
of evidence against it.
#2 the witnesses point to the united nations, as a satanic organization, yet, they
were affiliated with the u.n. as a registered n.g.o. (non-governmental organization)
from 1991-2001. Then, they lied about their involvement. I know you said you didn't
want any links to any websites, however, since you didn't honor my request to
not try to direct me to a watchtower article, and you did, and i read and considered
it, I ask you to go to the united nations website, search watchtower. click the
link entitled, "to whom it may concern" it verifies what I’m saying. How
could an organization, directed by god, be so hypocritical, and then LIE about it?!?!?!?!?
#3 All the failed prophecies. Read Luke 21:8, Deut 18:20-22 and read the May 1st
1997 watchtower, page 8 par.1 and tell me how they are God's chosen people,
and his mouthpiece on earth, when they got years 1799, 1874, 1914, 1975, 2000 and
the definition of "this generation", the blood issue, vaccinations, and
a vast number of other things completely wrong! The fact is, the watchtower has
a 100% failure rate when it comes to it's prophesies. But, do they ever admit
they are wrong? NO! They claim they got "new light" after it becomes painfully
obvious they failed once again.
I'm sorry, I don't expect perfection, but, if your going to claim to be
God's mouthpiece on earth, you need a much better track record than this.
Becky, I love you. and I hope you didn't take this as a personal attack.
I know this is hard for you, as it is for me. I don't go around, trying to pull
people from the witnesses. Remember, you ASKED for my reasons for leaving. I hope
you can see it in your heart, to love me as a sister, as I do you. If you decide
to talk to me, know that I will not put the witnesses down. Also, know, I lead a
moral and happy life, and I love Jehovah. -