Im kind of a dope sometimes, but can someone give me some examples of this? I have read postings by many about this, and I would like to be learn to identify them in the WT literature.
thank you
Smoky
what is WT Circular Reasoning/logic?
by Smoky 14 Replies latest jw experiences
-
-
jgnat
Here's some circular reasoning using the bible:
The Bible is accurate and true in all respects.
How do we know so?
The bible says so.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: Deu 32:4 [He is] the Rock, his work [is] perfect: for all his ways [are] judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right [is] he. But what if the bible can be proven not to be true in a single respect?
But it cannot be, because the bible says it is accurate and true in all respects.
The way out of the circular reasoning, of course, is that the original premise must be false. In this case, what is "all scripture"? Why do we limit ourselves, for instance, to the books selected by the Nicene Council? Can inspired people write current scriptures for today? Regarding Interpreting "profitable" does it include the instructive tale of creation? Or can science discovery hold equal credence? And so on...
To get you started on spotting flaws in reasoning, learn the major fallacies. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
-
jgnat
The classic example of Watchtower society circular reasoning is their identification as the Faithful and Discreet Slave, based on a supposed "proven" prophecy in 1914. See if you can figure out where the logic turns in on itself.
-
Gopher
I found a couple of examples here: http://www.freeminds.org/history/proclaimers.htm
Looking at certain section in the Watchtower's book about its own history "Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom"
Page 630 of this book has circular reasoning about the Great Crowd. The great crowd couldn't be clearly identified until it began to manifest itself. It manifested itself by being clearly seen.
Page 708 of this book: False analogy with a dark room, and more circular reasoning. How do we know that Jehovah gradually and progressively enlightens his people? Because that's how he's done it with Jehovah's Witnesses.
You can see how they start with a foregone conclusion, and work back from there. That's an underlying pattern in much circular logic.
-
drew sagan
The classic example of Watchtower society circular reasoning is their identification as the Faithful and Discreet Slave, based on a supposed "proven" prophecy in 1914. See if you can figure out where the logic turns in on itself.
Exactly.
I remember this one right from the 'Organized' book:
We must fully trust the 'Faithful Slave Class'...
Why?
Because Jesus trusts them enough to make them his 'Faithful Slave'! -
White Dove
Ban on blood transfusions: Save your life by dying.
Chenoa
-
Finally-Free
The watchtower is God's channel of communication to mankind because the watchtower says so.
I can't believe I fell for that.
W
-
skeeter1
Fallacy: Circular Reasoning
- What's the difference between a valid deductive argument and a fallacy? In the case of the fallacy of circular reasoning, the difference is not be as obvious as you might expect. In the fallacy of circular reasoning, which is often called begging the question, you assume to be true what you are supposed to be proving. But that's also true for all valid deductions, where the conclusion (what you are trying to prove) is derived from the premises or assumptions. This difference is that, in circular reasoning, the conclusion is contained in a single premise or assumption, while in a deductive argument the conclusion is derived from both premises. Consider the following exchanges:
Deductive Reasoning (Valid)
- Sports Fan #1: What makes you say Australian Rules Football is the most exciting sport in the world?
- Sports Fan #2: Because it is the fastest and highest scoring form of football, and whatever is the fastest and highest scoring form of football must be the most exciting sport in the world.
Circular Reasoning (Fallacious)
- Sports Fan #1: What makes you say Australian Rules Football is the most exciting sport in the world?
- Sports Fan #2: Because it is.
Often, however, circular reasoning is more subtle than this: it depends on an assumption not stated but assumed. Consider the famous argument of the French philosopher, René Descartes: "I think, therefore I am." Descartes has begged the question here, because when he said "I think," he'd already implied "I am" (or how else could he think?). Yet his fallacy continues to persuade people, over three hundred years later.
Exercises:
1. Which of the following is not an example of the fallacy of circular reasoning (or begging the question)?
- What's the difference between a valid deductive argument and a fallacy? In the case of the fallacy of circular reasoning, the difference is not be as obvious as you might expect. In the fallacy of circular reasoning, which is often called begging the question, you assume to be true what you are supposed to be proving. But that's also true for all valid deductions, where the conclusion (what you are trying to prove) is derived from the premises or assumptions. This difference is that, in circular reasoning, the conclusion is contained in a single premise or assumption, while in a deductive argument the conclusion is derived from both premises. Consider the following exchanges:
-
Awakened07
[person nr. 1]: "The Bible is true because God says so in the Bible."
[person nr. 2]: "-But at SOME point you have to have SOME piece of evidence, otherwise you're only believing the word of someone who lived thousands of years ago?"
[person nr. 1]: "Of course. The Bible contains prophecies that had a 100% success rate."
[person nr. 2]: "OK - that's good news. Are they verifiable through other sources than the Bible?"
[person nr. 1]: "Yes - we have archeology that shows that some of the kings and other persons of the Bible lived pretty much around the time that the Bible says."
[person nr. 2]: "OK, but can you prove that the biblical books were written before the events in the prophecies took place, and not after?"
[person nr. 1]: "Yes, if we follow the chronology in the Bible, we see that they..."
[person nr. 2]: "...Hang on - aren't you about to use the Bible in order to prove the Bible right??"
[person nr. 1]: "Well - as I said, archeology does show us that the Bible is historically correct on several occasions."
[person nr. 2]: "Yes, but are there any outside sources that confirm that those prophecies were written before the events took place? Are there tablets or scrolls found dating to before the events took place?"
[person nr. 1]: "Erhm... No."
[person nr. 2]: "Well, then how can I be sure these things weren't written down after the fact?"
[person nr. 1]: "You have to have faith in the word of God at some point."
[person nr. 2]: "OK, but why should I?"
[person nr. 1]: "Because the Bible says so, and the Bible is the word of God."
(OK - a little cheesy and not exhaustive in its explanation, but you get the point)
-
avishai
Here's a great one on it, this is the sanitized version
This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:
John: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."
Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's butt with us."
Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His butt?"
John: "If you kiss Hank's butt, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the snot out of you."
Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"
John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His butt."
Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."
Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the butt?"
Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."
John: "Then come kiss Hank's butt with us."
Me: "Do you kiss Hank's butt often?"
Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."
Me: "And has He given you a million dollars?"
John: "Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."
Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"
Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the snot out of you."
Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's butt, left town, and got the million dollars?"
John: "My mother kissed Hank's butt for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."
Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"
John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."
Me: "So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"
Mary: "Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."
Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"
John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"
Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."
John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's butt He'll kick the snot out of you."
Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."
Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."
Me: "Then how do you kiss His butt?"
John: "Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His butt. Other times we kiss Karl's butt, and he passes it on."
Me: "Who's Karl?"
Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's butt. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."
Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His butt, and that Hank would reward you?"
John: "Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."
From the Desk of Karl
- Kiss Hank's butt and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
- Use alcohol in moderation.
- Kick the snot out of people who aren't like you.
- Eat right.
- Hank dictated this list Himself.
- The moon is made of green cheese.
- Everything Hank says is right.
- Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
- Don't use alcohol.
- Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
- Kiss Hank's butt or He'll kick the snot out of you.
Me: "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."
Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."
Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."
John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."
Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"
Mary: "Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."
Me: "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the snot out of people just because they're different?"
Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."
Me: "How do you figure that?"
Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"
Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."
John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."
Me: "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."
John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."
Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."
Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."
Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."
John: "Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"
Me: "We do?"
Mary: "Of course we do, Item 7 says so."
Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"
John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."
Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"
Mary: She blushes.
John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."
Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"
John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."
Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"
Mary: She looks positively stricken.
John: He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"
Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"
Mary: Sticks her fingers in her ears."I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."
John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."
Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."
Mary: She faints.
John: He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you were one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the snot out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's butt for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."
With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off