"Look, your house is abandoned to you!" - This was Jesus saying he had washed his hands of the Jews - but was it the amharets (people of the earth) or the religious leaders he had given up on? Jesus later said that "your enemies would come with pointed stakes...and would dash you and your children to the ground" - indicating that 37 years after he died, Jerusalem would be destroyed. This was considered to be God's punishment on his people for rejecting his Son - yet one can't help but think that the whole thing was orchestrated years in advance whether or not the Jews listened to Jesus. Jesus' ministry was only 3 1/2 years long. He knew he would die at the hands of the Pharisees. What do you think?
Was Jerusalem's destruction in 70 AD avoidable?
by truthseeker 10 Replies latest watchtower bible
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greendawn
It depends on your perspective for a believer the destruction of Jerusalem could have easily been avoided if the Jews had been more reasonable in their dealings with the Christ. God is the ultimate master of all human history and can easily change its flow.
Judging by the behaviour of the Jews as a whole, as a nation, towards the apostles they were just as viciously opposed to Christianity as their leaders not just up to 70 AD but even long after that, until Christianity became the state religion of Rome and they found themselves under its vindictive rule.
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truthseeker
Good point Greendawn. However, if the Jews (Pharisees) had been reasonable with Christ, would he have gone through the whole ransom sacrifice process? What if Jesus had been accepted as the Messiah? How long would he have lived? His Kingdom was no part of this world, yet what would he have done with his time had the Jews accepted him?
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truthseeker
My point is that one sequence of events was necessary for another sequence of events. Rejection of the Messiah led to the destruction of Jerusalem, regardless of whether history changed or not. You cannot have one without the other.
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Leolaia
Supercessionism is not a historical explanation for what happened. In the judgment of historians, it was avoidable. Take a look at the new book Rome and Jerusalem: A Clash of Ancient Civilizations by Martin Goodman. Here is a review: http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/history/0,,1999581,00.html
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Paralipomenon
Israel was a rebellious province of the Roman Empire. They faced the same fate as any other area that rebelled.
Jesus had nothing to do with this. -
JeffT
I've always intrepreted Jesus' comment as "You're on your own." Part of my thinking is Jesus understood the mindset of the Jews. Had they refused to fight the Romans the destruction could have been avoided. But being who they were it was inevitable that the Jews would fight the Romans - and lose.
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truthseeker
Leolaia, thanks for the book review link.
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Justahuman24
Had Jesus been accepted as the Messiah and had the Jews believed in him, I think Jerusalem would still have been destroyed. Think about it: The acceptance of Jesus by the Jews would have meant that they recognized someone new as their king. This, I'm sure, wouldn't have gone well with the Romans. Once the Jews have someone as King over them, guess what? They wouldn't have wanted to be ruled by the Romans. The Romans would've considered this a rebellion or rejection of their authority. So the Romans would've tried to have Jesus killed and those who accepted him as King.
Justahuman- but super nonetheless
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JCanon
The Bible says that Satan will be let loose at the end of the 1000 years and will deceive some of the people. Is Satan FORCED into this? Well, maybe and maybe not. But God definitely manipulates things, though it's a gray area as to whether that totally removes choice or not.
For instance. Someone might have a drinking problem. They went to rehab and are trying to stay off alcohol. Someone decides to throw a cocktail party and encourage him to take a drink. They do more than that. A beautiful prostitute says she'll make love to him for free. He takes gulps down to martinis right away! Now. Did he have a CHOICE? Could he have said, "No on the drinks. But if you give me a 10% discount I might take you up on the lovemaking!"? Sure.
So just because things are manipulated doesn't mean there is absolutely no choice involved. Which I think is ultimately what is the point trying to be made.
A specific example of this is when God is said to have hardened the heart of pharoah. Does that mean pharoah had no choice or just that God was manipulating things for his purpose? I think the movie, "The Ten Commandments" is great at showing how this might have been done. In the movie, after the Jews have left, it is his spiteful wife, Neferteri who reminds him how the slaves are laughing at him, at which point he get angry. She then suggests another option for him, which is to kill Moses and the slaves out of spite. So she hardened his heart, but was he absolutely forced to listen to her?
An example of how God tries to manipulate things that didn't turn out so well in the overall, is the case of trying to coordinate the last deportation of the Jews and the leaving of the land of Judah and Israel desolate for 70 years in line with the jubilee cycles of the Jews. Thus Jerusalem was first destroyed in year 19 of Nebuchadnezzar, which was four years before the 70 years of desolation was to begin. So to make the numbers turn out right, these few people would be there to fulfill the prophetic pattern. They would be deported along with the nations round about and inhabiting the northern kingdom to fulfill the precise 70 years that would end on the jubilee in the 1st of Cyrus. But it didn't turn out that way. The last governor, Gedaliah, was assasinated and the Jews then ran down to Egypt. This wasn't good. God wanted the Jews to return to their homeland until the appointed time for their deportation. He threatened them with the sword if they would not return, but they refused. That wasn't enough incentive or "manipulation" on God's part for them. So they made a different choice, directly refusing to listen to Jehovah. As a result, he killed them all off but a few, and a handful of the Jews did return to Judah in year 23 when the last deportation took place, and thus God's purpose was still fulfilled, but not exactly as he had planned generally. So CHOICE is still involved but God also has a schedule and he manipulates events sometimes for the sake of his purpose and for the significance of chronology.
Another case of ADAPTATION is the restoration of the Jews to Palestine which marks their 69th jubilee anniverary from the Exodus. As punishment for leaving God's covenant, the Jews would suffer a "great tribulation" just prior to their return to their homeland and being accepted back by Jehovah. This was the Holocaust. The Holocaust was prophesied to exterminate two-thirds of the Jewish population in Europe and a third would survive and be restored to Israel. But Hitler was so effective with his death camps, two-thirds of the Jews were killed off before the 7-year period was over, which was from the end of the 62 weeks for 7 years until 1947. So the "days were cut short" of this great tribulation, that is, Hitler and WWII once two-thirds had been reached, or else, as the Bible says, "no flesh [of the Jews] would be saved." So this time, God manipulated the war to limit the genocide. Even so, the Jews did not officially regain control of Palestine until 1947, the official end of the gentile times.
Son in SUMMARY, it is my view that God indeed SHAPES things and manipulates people and events to fit certain prophecies or patterns, but that it is not written in stone. Sometimes there are adjustments and God has to be both creative and flexible to make the end result work. Further, God can change his mind on certain things as well, like with Nineveh that repented though it was prophesied they would be destroyed.
So I think the MATRIX situation about destiny can be applied here. Neo thinks everything is destined already and that he has no choice, but The Oracle explains to him that he's already made the choice, he's just there to understand it. So likewise, if God looks into the future and sees you have choosen to turn around from wicked ways and repent and he prophesies that, it doesn't mean he is taking away your choice, only recording the choice you make in the future.
Prophesying what you do in the future doesn't mean what you will do wasn't your personal choice, even if God provides some motivation for you. So I think a more pertinent question is whether God motivates for your good or is he evil and manipulates things for your harm? Obviously, God wants good things for us, so we don't mind the manipulation. Telling us that we can live forever is good motivation that gives us strength and manipulates our choices for our own benefit.
JCanon