Very good reasoning but your Mom is sooooo brain washed if the FBS/GB said night was day and day was night she would believe them.The cult sure has power over people with no reasoning skills.
Bob
Email from my Mom defending WTS, Point/counter point/ Point
by Burger Time 30 Replies latest watchtower scandals
-
-
sweet pea
Great illustration about the map!
Looking forward to hearing what happens next.... -
mentalclearness
I thought your response was incredibly eloquent and logical (she must be kicking herself for encouraging you to read)...I'm kind of surprised that as a mother herself your mom isn't more empathetic towards the victims...turning around the snowplow story was genius. I'll be checking to see how she responds next..
-
Burger Time
Well got my reponse yesterday. Actually me, Mom, Dad, and my brother had a long long 4 hour phone call about a lot of this tough. Each of us going back and forth and back and forth. It was mainly about the blood issue...I got the one thing they can't overcome that I havn't really seen touched on any of the websites and havn't discussed with them...but I will post that on the other thread. Anyways here is the response to my Email...I think one thing of note is the fact my Mom said she would probably be in the same situation as Barb if she had seen what Barb did. Also my Mom always ends with "Love you"
My answer is that I personally do not know the facts of any cases involving child molestation. Those who know have done what they can to "change" the policy.....now it is in Jesus' hands....and believe me if there is wrongdoing on the part of his anointed ones.....he will correct it....they will be punished.
I don't know at this point what I would do ....I might be disfellowshipped....but at this point I personally would not be minding my own business because I know nothing of the details. I do know that Satan is trying to break up Jehovah's Organization and "scatter" Jesus' sheep....(John 10) The Ben Jeshua group and others that have splintered off (Evidently they don't all agree on everything either or they would be in "one" organization) are no longer in Jesus' flock....because he said he would protect his sheep and that he wouldn't allow the "wolf" to come in and scatter them. Evidently the wolf has entered and caused a scattering....but Jesus said his sheep would know his voice....I believe that voice is with Jehovah's organization. It was GOD not Jesus who said he would take out of the nations a people for his NAME.....His name is Jehovah.....or what ever is common to a language.....we know who our God is and we know who his Son is (John 17:3) ....just like the prophets of old and thousands of others who did not bow to BAAL in Israel. did not LEAVE Israel just because the leadership...including priests were evil and deceptive....they knew that Jehovah was working his purpose out through HIS Nation....Israel. I hear Jesus voice in the organization....I follow him....I am not going to follow any other voice....the preaching work...announcing that Jesus is King must be preached before the end....and Jehovah's organization is accomplishing that despite all efforts to stop it.
Love you,
Mom
-
mentalclearness
Blind loyalty to organization....And since she personally does not know any cases..hmmmmm...sounds like the whole see no evil hear no evil excuse....reminds me of a saying in spanish "no se puede tapar el sol con un dedo"..meaning you can't cover the sun with your finger..(something got lost in translation..LOL!!) but basically, how long will the organization be able to cover up these pedophile cases..I'm sure if the majority of the witnesses knew how many of them existed then there would be alot more questioning of the faith..But I'm curious as to the one thing they can't seem to overcome????
-
flipper
Burger Time , excellent thread. I'm so impressed how you are trying to help your mom reason on this, although as you can see she is so controlled in her thinking by the org. that reason is lost on her. But keep trying, ya never know! She did admit she didn't know what she would do if she knew what Barabara knew, however she is trying to bury her head in the sand like the proverbial ostrich, like saying," Don't confuse me with the facts, I know what I know because Jesus tells me so." It's like talking with someone who has radio static ringing in their ears, they won't listen. Good job though, keep trying, Peace out, Mr. Flipper
-
Burger Time
OK I'll post this here as I think more people are reading this then my other thread. Basically my Mom and I have theological debates on almost everything. So here is the series of emails since we have been arguing blood. There is also another answer to this debate but it includes my blood argument it can be found here http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/9/140069/1.ashx.
My short reply which I believed showed my ass.....I was at my friends and wrote it very quickly as more of a outline then a reply...well instead of hitting "save" I hit send. Damn..oh well later on I will post my reply to this...which will be ten times better..
Mom the biggest problem is that your attaining personal accountability to an orginization....but then if you do that for the positive you HAVE to do it for the negative too. You can't claim that the orginization will be blessed because of positive things....then claim it can't be cut off from God for doing horrible things. This Molestation thing went directly too the top. The reason you don't know the facts is because your not willing to look at the facts. The basic thing is, that YOU HAVE TO BE JUDGE ON HOW YOU JUDGE OTHERS. If your orginization says you can tell a religion is from Satan by certain factors. They can not be doing those exact things. That comes down to one of the most important laws!
Just like when you knock on someones door and tell them they need to look at all the follies of their religion and need to do independant research so that they know their religion is false, what will you do if they ask, "can you do the same thing your asking"? By what you keep doing, no you can't. Your asking something of them your not willing to do. They are asking of others something they will not do themselves. But this just proves more and more there is no orginization...there is only personal relationships and you can't put any trust in a human orginization. 1 Kings 19: 18..God had personally chosen those 7,000, those who were doing what was right who were reserved by God himself. Yet Elisha didn't know any of them. Neither Elisha or those seven thousand could look towards Isreal for help. They could only look to God.
Either way the whole thing is while having a orginization is good...it doesn't mean you have to be in that orginization in order to get God's blessings...if you do that that orginization has to be judged by it's actions...if it allows bad things it can't be heaped on just a few bad apples...it has to be heaped on all. Just like Isreal when it did what was right was blessed and when it did wrong God had Babylon come destroy it!
My Mom's email......
Jon, the governing body is accountable to Jehovah and Jesus Christ. If they need to be held accountable otherwise they will be. Elisha and 5000 others remained in Israel......still looked to Jehovah as working his will through Israel.....and allowed Jehovah to take care of matters. Elisha was designated by Jehovah to send "corrective" prophesies against the king and others......he felt he was all alone in Israel serving Jehovah. ....but there were 5000 others who had not bent the knee to Baal......they hadn't left Israel.....they still worshipped at the temple......but they continued looking to that nation to produce the Messiah and left the correction to those appointed by Jehovah to do the correcting. I haven't been appointed by Jehovah to do that. In the mean time I am continuing to study, go in service, and go to meetings as Jesus and the Bible say I should.
Today, Jehovah 's purpose......his will, is that the good news of His Kingdom be preached. All the evidence proves to me......it may not to you.....but it does to me that we are living in the last days of this system. Jesus outlined for a reason the "sign of his presence" it corresponds to the ride of the horsemen in John's vision in Revelation 6. In my opinion there is no other explanation for all the worldwide badness that is going on. Satan has to have been thrown down here to the vicinity of the earth stirring up problems unprecedented.....even world leaders themselves don't know the way out of situations they are in......(How do you fight against terrorism or stop it?) The infrastructures of society are breaking down.....(bridges.....sewers.....power grids.......air traffic control......etc. etc.....not to mention weather that has gone wild.....and global warming. On Good Morning America during the Bosnian conflict (ethnic cleansing)....one high official was being interviewed. He was a medical officer who for some reason was sitting in on a meeting with some leaders in the conflict.....I don't remember which side he was on.....but he made the statement that he got up in the middle of the meeting because what they were discussing was "diabolical" and he didn't want any part in it. The warfare that is carried on today is more than ever Satanic. Everywhere you look....the system is geared toward death......skulls are fashionable now for even the designers are using it as a motif. One day on Martha Stewart....she was giving away a scarf made by some famous designer and it had skulls all over it. Satan is numbing everyone to death.........the movies out now are more and more geared toward gruesome death and horror and demonism. People love it. In verse 17 of chapter 12 It says Satans main goal after the announcement: Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and t he authority of his Christ, because the acuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God" is to wage war withthe remaining ones of those who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus . "
Who is doing a world wide witness to the fact that Jesus is enthroned in the heavens and that that Kingdom is in power? Who is trying to discredit them on every turn.....but no matter what , what is continuing on ?
The publications and people you are reading and getting your "help" to understand the scriptures from are not doing that work and they are not being deterred by Satan......because the works they are doing are setting up soup kitchens, building schools, hospitals......that is not what Jesus said his followers would be doing......he said something that takes a lot more work. It takes study, preparation and reliance on him to go door to door and find people who are fed up with life in this system. We do that and Yes, the brothers do "sin" James said anyone who says he doesn't sin in word or deed is a perfect man (James 3).....they aren't perfect and they do admit it in writing.....read the Proclaimers book for yourself......why are you taking the word of people who are obviously disgruntled with the organization? If someone interested in becoming a sincere proselite in Israel listened to someone disgruntled with the way things were being done in Israel.....they would never become a proselite and may miss out on a blessing. (Two non Israelite women are Jesus' ancestors). They both became proselites although there were "bad" apples so to speak in among the good.
Read the book of Nehemiah. It shows that there was opposition to the building work Nehemiah was overseeing. It was "God's work". There were many opposers and it is interesting the forms the opposition took. You can read it from our viewpoint in doing the preaching work or you can read it from the viewpoint of all those others who call themselves Christians doing God's work......but only one can be the right way.
My Bible says to abstain from blood. Paul didn't specifically mention that it was okay to eat blood and I think that he would have being that it was definitely an issue among the jews as you said. I think that just like things strangled, things sacrificed to an idol and blood are mentioned in Acts 15...... In Romans 14, I believe that Paul would have delineated each as separate from the unclean animals Jews were forbidden to eat . In that chapter he is talking about the unclean animals that the Jews weren't allowed to eat under the law....that is what they were judging each other over......not foods offered to idols or foods with blood. I believe t hat as thorough as Paul was he would have point blank said that the counsel in the letter of Acts 15 was only to appease the Jews and that it was not necessary to follow that any longer. Otherwise the Bible is contradicting itself. He is contrasting Jewish law with the new Christian law......why would those specific things to be abstained from be mentioned to keep abstaining from if the law of Christ overrides those laws? It doesn't make sense for the law to be sent to the congregations as noted in Acts 15, and then be revoked by Paul.......that doesn't make sense. I don't believe it would have been recorded in Acts if it weren't
a law that would be abiding for all Christians for all time. Why would that part of the letter be deleted so to speak and the counsel on idolatry and fornication not be deleted also. To me they are all put in the same category and all stand for Christians. I cannot see the reasoning you have on this matter at all except that you are being deceived by false reasoning. The only use for blood in the scriptures for God's people is for sacrifice or to be poured out. Jesus poured out his blood.....his life in our behalf and to purposely disobey God's law on blood would be tantamount to disregarding Jesus' sacrifice......just as committing fornication, or engaging in idolatry would. (Hebrews 10:26-31.)
You don't have a grasp yet on what Jehovah's Organization is all about. It has a purpose just as the Nation of Israel had a purpose. Because imperfect men are involved there is error and stumbling at times.....but because the ones involved and all of Jehovah's people are supposed to be teachable ...... when error is made...... it is corrected and those who have Faith in Jesus as the Head of the Congregation (the Organization) leave it in his hands and continue to do as Jesus commanded......Preach, Teach, Make Disciples, Announce his Kingdom , and live as closely as possible by his example. Why is there soooo much counsel in the New Testament about how to act.....it certainly isn't because the anointed are perfect in their human state. It is precisely because they are imperfect that they are counseled and disciplined. The same is happening today.....Jehovah's people.....including the governing body are being disciplined and counseled by Jehovah's Word the Bible. The organization has been in existence for over 100 years and is accomplishing Jehovah's Will.....no other organization today can say that. The fact that there is so much violent opposition to it's teachings adds to the evidence that we are doing what Jesus said to do. It is on account of HIS NAME that we are persecuted. We are preaching that he is now IN HIS PRESENCE IN KINGDOM POWER..(Revelation 6, 12:10 Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 14)....people do not want to hear that. We preach that HE IS NOT ALMIGHTY GOD. (John 3:16, John 17:3) people do not want to hear that.
We preach that CHRISTIANS should be neutral (John 15:18,19; 17:14;2 Corinthians 10:3,4; Matthew 26:52) Many are jailed for preaching this and obeying it. We obey God's Law on Blood....thus honoring Jesus' sacrifice Acts 15:20, 29; Hebrews 10: 26,27) People do not like hearing this. We obey Jesus command to PREACH and follow his example of going door to door (Matthew 10:5-10;24-28; Luke 10:1-7)
People certainly do not like us doing that! Peter warned that when we preach about it being the "time of the end" that people would ridicule us for that.(2Peter 3:3) Is there any other religion that you know that is ridiculed for doing these things? Most other religions don't do it. They don't do what Jesus said to do. Yet Jesus and the Peter and Paul all said to keep that day "close in mind".
That's all I am going to say Jon. If you want to follow the course of ridiculing Jehovah's organization.....that is your privelige....He will allow you to do that ....but I believe that we are living in the critical times Paul spoke of in 2Timothy 3 and that the all important thing is to preach the good news that all this is soon to be replaced by God's Kingdom with Christ Jesus as King and that people need to be heeding everything the Bible says in their lives (Matthew24:36-44). We teach people how to do that as Jesus told us to. -
Hellrider
A man was driving in a blizzard. Things were looking really bad when he saw a snow plow just ahead. He decided to follow the snowplow. He drove and drove following as closely as he dared , sometimes losing sight of the plow, but then seeing it again. Things were really bad. Finally, the snowplow stopped. The driver got out and came to the man's window. the man rolled down the window and the plow driver asked, "Where are you going? The man replied, " Well, I'm on my way to Montana." The snow plow driver said, " Well, I'm clearing this parking lot!"
Such a fine parable about the Watchtower Society and their followers.
-
mentalclearness
O.K. That was really long....The first part I was laughing a bit because reminded me of the church lady in SNL..."Could it be SATAN??????" The Martha Stewart anecdote was too much.....The rest of the email I found so familar in talking with my own mom and so frustrating. Why is it soooooo difficult to look at the organization objectively?? Your email was right on the money. I mean if we disqualify other organized religions because they make mistakes, why do JWs protect and defend their own religion so much...Obviously God would not be blessing an organization that is not different from the rest.
Now another thing I wanted to bring up was the preaching..Mormons also preach.. I have had visits from them on many times..There were these americans that lived down my street who are also some sort of bible group..And they also "preach"..although not door to door..but in parks, open areas.. Just casual discussions about God and invite people to bible study..They are from California..Missionary types..Now of course, they are probably not as organized and woldwide as the witnesses but in reality how eefective is the door to door witnessing??? I was talking about that with my mom because I told her I thought people were more likely to accept talking about religion when JWs informal witness to friends and coworkers, then going from door to door...I mean if the objective is to preach..then they have to realize how ineefective it is to knock on someone's door and invade their personal space to talk about one of the two topic which are practically taboo for today's society..politics and religion...
-
mentalclearness
sorry about the mistakes..couldn't spell check..