by uncle_onion 39 Replies latest jw friends
When I started this thread I had no idea that it would cause such a stir! It is no good slagging each other off just because we have opposing veiws. I saw enough of this whenI was in the org and I promised myself that I would allow other people their opinions, when I left.
Still considering the evidence on this one!
Take care
UO
UO
Ezekiel 14:14 And if these three men proved to be in the midst of it, Noah,DANIEL and Job, they themselves because of their rightiousness would deliver there souls, is the utterance of sovereign lord Jehovah.
If you compare the Time when Ezekiel and Daniel were supposed to have been written, then you get a discrepency here.
Question: Could Daniel have achieved such fame and his fame been recorded, to be up there with the likes of Noah, and job, at that time of writing?
Daniel was but a boy at this time, at the most 20yrs old.To be recorded in the book of Ezekiel and Daniel to be presented to that nation as a spiritual giant, so to speak is streaching credibility a bit far.
Radar
Hi Ray
Thats interesting. But how does that work out as I thought the book of Ezekiel was not in dispute (date wise)?
UO
Hi UO
The fact that the writer of Ezekiel, speaks of Daniel as if he is known by all the nation of Israel, in the same league as Noah and Job.
Yet Daniel at that time was still very young and not attained to that level of fame, and there must have been many daniels that had lived and showed Faith.
They would also have had no writings about this daniel only perhaps a few reports.
Ezekiel, acccording to chronologists, was written long before all the events of daniel's famous acts of faith took place.
I remember preparing for a talk in the ministry school, my bible reading covered this portion of the bible.I remember being puzzled over it, and I wrote my first letter to the Watchtower on the subject. The reply was simply that daniel must have attained to some fame at that time and they advised me to get help from the elders, which was funny, because I was one at the time.Of course they had no real answers.
I know you are trying to find some evidence that the book of Daniel was written long after the prophecies written in it took place.What I am illustrating, is the fact that the so called chronology of the bible writers is all mixed up, and you cannot be sure of anything when it comes to things like this.
At the end of the day, those that accept these prophecies, do it in faith. I believe it is faith in man, but thats just my oponion.
I am not sure if the dating of the book of Ezekiel is in dispute or not.
Radar
its important to note too, and this is often overlooked, that ezekiel's reference to daniel does not give any direct credibility to the BOOK of daniel, only that there was A daniel who was famous by about the same time period as the book's point of view. since we would not really expect otherwise in the case of a LATE daniel authorship, ezekiels props to his bro daniel do not really help us. in fact, nothing ezekiel even MIGHT have said about daniel could help us identify the writer of the book of daniel since nearly all the events of daniel took place afterward.
however this cuts both ways. the argument that daniel was not mentioned in sirach's list does not really seem to help support a late authorship for the same reason. we expect daniel to be a famous character no matter when the book was written.
a common explanation that resolves this problem is that ezekiel's daniel was an ancient legendary gentile character, just like noah and job. this argument has a lot going for it. ( http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Eparasha/noah/klein.html )
mox
"It is very difficult to prophesy, especially about the future."
- ancient Chinese proverb
Moxy
Thanks for the link.
Very interesting, I have never read that before.
Radar
So I guess the questions are:
Is the book of Daniel a FRAUD?
Do all the facts prove it to be a FRAUD?
What do all the FACTs prove?
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
D Wiltshire,
The term fraud may be an overstatement, but it is quite evident that the book of Daniel is what is called a pseudonymous writing. All Jewish apocalyptic literature that we know of was written pseudonymously, meaning they were written much later by a person claiming to be an ancient hero. Today we might call this fraud, but at the time this was an accepted practice which gave added authority to a text.
For more information, check out a good Catholic study bible such as the New American Bible Catholic Study Bible (Oxford) or the New Jerusalem Bible Study Bible (Doubleday). These study bibles have many good notes on the authorship and dating of Bible writings. I have found that Catholic scholarship is very good in this area since it is not as apologetic and biased as Protestant scholarship, such as you will find in an NIV study bible. (Please note that I am not a Catholic)
Hope that helps,
rem
Rem,
We should visit someday.
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
Some good reading on Daniel:
H. H. Rowley: Darius the Mede and the Four World Empires in the Book of Daniel (Cardiff: University of Wales Press Board, 1935).
J. G. Baldwin: Daniel (Leicester: Inter-Varsity Press, 1978).
- Jan
--
"Doctor how can you diagnose someone with Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and then act like I had some choice about barging in here right now?" -- As Good As It Gets
