jan H and Daniel

by uncle_onion 39 Replies latest jw friends

D wiltshire

Jan,
Maybe one of these days I will, if I can find it in the library.
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
Gozz

Radar, thanks for the information per the Ezekiel 14:14. Never occured to me to correlate the dates.
bigboi

Danel's Need for a Son
Then Danel, the Healer's man,
the Hero, the man of the god of Harnam,
made an offering for the gods to eat,
made an offering for the holy ones to drink.
Then he climbed onto his mat and lay down,
onto his pallet, where he spent the night.
One day had ended, and on the second
Danel made an offering to the gods,
an offering for the gods to eat,
an offering for the holy ones to drink.
Three days had ended, and on the fourth
Danel made an offering to the gods,
an offering for the gods to eat,
an offering for the holy ones to drink.
Five days had ended, and on the sixth
Danel made an offering to the gods,
an offering for the gods to eat,
an offering for the holy ones to drink.
Danel climbed onto his mat,
he climbed onto his mat and lay down,
onto his pallet, where he spent the night.
Then, on the seventh day,
Baal approached the Assembly with his plea:
"Danel, the Healer's man, is unhappy;
the Hero, the man of the god of Harnam, sighs:
he has no son, but his brothers do,
no heir, like his cousins;
unlike his brothers, he has no son,
nor an heir, like his cousins.
Yet he has made an offering for the gods to eat,
an offering for the holy ones to drink.
So, my father, El the Bull, won't you bless him?
Creator of All, won't you show him your favor?
Let him have a son in his house,
a descendant inside his palace,
to set up a stele for his divine ancestor,
a family shrine in the sanctuary;
to free his spirit from the earth,
guard his footsteps from the Slime;
to crush those who rebel against him,
drive off his oppressors;
to hold his hand when he is drunk,
support him when he is full of wine;
to eat his offering in the temple of Baal,
his portion in the temple of El;
to patch his roof when it leaks,
wash his clothes when they are dirty."
El took care of his servant,
he blessed Danel, the Healer's man,
he showed favor to the Hero, the man of the god of Harnam:
"Let the passion of Danel, the Healer's man, revive,
the desire of the Hero, the man of the god of Harnam.
Let him go up to his bed:
when he kisses his wife she'll become pregnant;
when he embraces her she'll conceive:
she will become pregnant, she will give birth, she will conceive;
there will be a son in his house,
an heir inside his palace,
to set up a stele for his divine ancestor,
a family shrine in the sanctuary;
to free his spirit from the earth,
guard his footsteps from the Slime;
to crush those who rebel against him,
drive off his oppressors. . ."
". . . a family shrine in the sanctuary;
to free your spirit from the earth,
guard your footsteps from the Slime;
to crush those who rebel against you,
drive off your oppressors;
to eat your offering in the temple of Baal,
your portion in the temple of El;
to hold your hand when you are drunk,
support you when you are full of wine;
to patch your roof when it leaks,
wash your clothes when they are dirty."
Danel's face was glad,
and above his brow shone.
He opened his mouth and laughed,
put his feet on a stool,
raised his voice and shouted:
"Now I can sit back and relax;
my heart inside me can relax;
for a son will be born to me, like my brothers,
an heir, like my cousins,
who will set up a stele for my divine ancestor,
a family shrine in the sanctuary;
who will free my spirit from the earth,
guard my footsteps from the Slime;
who will crush those who rebel against me,
drive off my oppressors;
who will hold my hand when I am drunk,
support me when I am full of wine;
who will eat my offering in the temple of Baal,
my portion in the temple of El;
who will patch my roof when it leaks,
wash my clothes when they are dirty."
Danel arrived at his house,
Danel reached his palace.
T'he Wise Women entered his house,
the Singers, the Swallows.
Then Danel, the Healer's man,
the Hero, the man of the god of Harnam,
slaughtered an ox for the Wise Women,
he gave food to the Wise Women,
drink to the Singers, the Swallows.
One day had ended, and on the second
he gave food to the Wise Women,
drink to the Singers, the Swallows.
Three days had ended, and on the fourth
he gave food to the Wise Women,
drink to the Singers, the Swallows.
Five days had ended, and on the sixth
he gave food to the Wise Women,
drink to the Singers, the Swallows.
Then, on the seventh day,
the Wise Women left his house,
the Singers, the Swallows . . .
. . . the pleasures of bed,
. . . the delights of bed . . .
Danel sat and counted the months.
Excerpted from M. D. Coogan, Stories from Ancient Canaan (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1978), pp. 32-35.
Babylonia Index.
Home Page
cyberguy

Daniel -- An introduction & Commentary by Joyce G. Baldwin, can be purchased at http://www.ivpbooks.com/
I have the complete Tyndale Old Testament and New Testament Commentaries -- They're great! I would say a "must-have" for anyone seriously looking for a modern commentary.
Jan,
Joyce's work has excellent coverage of some of the issues you've raised, but seems to bend toward the traditional view of the date of writing, authorship, and historicity of the book. Any comments on this (see pp. 19-46)?
Rex B13

Rem,
>I have found that Catholic scholarship is very good in this area since it is not as apologetic and biased as Protestant scholarship,
Translation: I accept the Catholic because it accepts all 'higher critisism' as valid.
>such as you will find in an NIV study bible. (Please note that I am not a Catholic)
Doesn't matter
The Cathoic church accepts miracles, within it's own realm. It considers it's own councils and proclamations on the same level as scripture. It has apostasized to the extent that it accepts Mary as a co-mediator and is practically deity, yet for the most part, it accepts all that science has to say about origins and regularly denies scripture.
Of course it is going to favor the atheistic critics, Sola Scritura from protestantism has weakened and taxes it's own hold on Christianity. It has lost much of it's power, so it is used by the 'powers of the air' whenever possible.
Rex
Rex B13

Jan,
Your obvious bias that makes your scholarship unreliable:
>It is a very obvious rule for textual criticism that a book writing about certain events are written after the events took place.
Don't ignore it or 'blow it off'. This statement is very relevant to your acceptance or non-acceptance of evidence.
Rex
Rex B13

>Porphyry (232-305 AD), was among the first to seed dubts in the book of Daniel.
Joe
Yep and his works were trashed:
This view was first developed by the anti-Christian Porphyry in the 3rd century AD. The history of this view is given by Archer in EBC:
"The Maccabean date hypothesis, a widely held theory of the origin and date of the Book of Daniel, was originally advanced by the third-century A.D. Neoplatonic philosopher Porphyrius of Tyre. According to the relation of his opinions by Jerome (who spent much of his commentary on Daniel refuting Porphyry's arguments), Porphyry contended that the remarkably accurate "predictions" contained in Daniel (esp. ch. 11) were the result of a pious fraud, perpetrated by some zealous propagandist of the Maccabean movement, who wished to encourage a spirit of heroism among the Jewish patriots resisting Antiochus IV. The discomfiture of Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar as related in Daniel were intended to be prophetic of the defeats and downfall of the hated Epiphanes.
"Following Jerome's refutation of Porphyry, he was more or less dismissed by Christian scholarship as a mere pagan detractor who had allowed a naturalistic bias to warp his judgment.
And isn't it ironic that the followers of the same church who dismissed this fellow for the crank that he was, now support what he said because it fits in with their own slant against the validity of scriptural prophecy?
Rex
Rex B13

As usual Jan, you're pretty slippery and hard to pin down. I'll bet you were a 'trouble shooter' or a hired gun sent after pesky pastors, eh?
>3) Other references to Daniel are all very late
a) Sirach does list up a large number of heroes and prophets from the canonic texts. The absence of Daniel is very notable. He wrote in 190 BC).
b) First mention of Daniel is in Cybyl III 388ff (c. 140 BC) and 1 Macc 2:39ff (c. 110 BC). This is consistent with all the other evidence above, concluding that Daniel was written in 167-163 BC.
Back to my 'cut and paste', which saves me lots of time and typing!
The issue--was it written BEFORE the events or NOT?
Notice carefully that our task is much more simple than would first appear. We do NOT have to demonstrate that the Book of Daniel was written according to conservative theories--in the 6th century BC. ALL we have to do (in this first part) is to demonstrate that it was written BEFORE 167 BC! If the prophecies were uttered even ten years before the event, then they constitute 'prophecy proper'.
Strictly speaking, all that is therefore necessary to do is to demonstrate that the material/content in the book of Daniel was in existence by the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. We don't even have to show that the book was in its current form at all-if we can even find references or close/obvious allusions to the images/languages in Daniel, we will have ante-dated the events, and hence, have encountered 'real' prophecy. [If we find data to support a MUCH earlier, perhaps 6th century provenance, then 'so much the better'.]
And this is a much simpler task...
1. Do we have any copies of the Book of Daniel that either date BEFORE 167bc, or even somewhat later ones that virtually require the existence of the Danielic material before that time? [The Dead Sea Scrolls data]
Go here: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qwhendan3a.html
2. Do we have any literary references or clear allusions to the Book in other pre-Maccabean extra-biblical literature?
Go here http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qwhendan3b.html
Check it out for yourself. No use in me doing a paraphrase of the info.
You seem to be as selective as anyone else in what you attempt to dispute! Let's focus now, old friend:
IS IT VALID PROPHECY IF THE EVENTS IN QUESTION ARE FORETOLD BEFORE THEY HAPPEN?
Rex
transhuman68

Some great information about Daniel, and why we shouldn't 'Pay Attention To Daniel's Prophecy.'
Satanus

Wow, this brings back memories. Rex, the uberchristian knight/crusader. Kinda like perry.
S

jan H and Daniel

Share this