I hope this won’t take me too long, as being concise isn’t my biggest talent. A recent thread on the 144,000 made me put a couple of things together about the governing body. These are the ones that claim to have authority from Jehovah, to tell the over 6,00,000 that “… although we aren’t masters over anyone’s faith, these 150 items are absolutely prohibited for you to do.” I was always curious how if they weren’t masters over our faith, how they could make so many rules? (oops, I asked a thinking question. I think that is prohibited to, due to the faith weakening nature of logical questions)
Did you know that the “faithful and discreet slave” of Mt 24:45-47 is charged with providing ‘food at the proper time?’ Although the context doesn’t make clear at all what feeding is entailed here, that is all the faithful slave is given: a commission to feed. No authority given here. Besides that, this reference is too cryptic and out of context with the rest of what Jesus said here to really say with any certainty that this “slave” refers to any group. Which is probably why a lot of religions keep silent on it.
The 144,000. Revelation 7 and 14. In Rev 7, we see them from the tribes of Israel, 12,000 each. (Different tribes from the ones in Exodus FYI) In Rev 14, we see them singing! If anything, Revelation shows this number to be a choir, not a code word for a governing body. Again, no where is their a direct or implied giving of authority to this 144,000. They are singers, not rulers.
Where does the authority come from? Answer: Rev 4:4, the 24 elders with crowns on their head. Crowns of authority. This is the only link to the “faithful slave” and the “144,000” being given authority. Do you realize what this means?
There is absolutely positively no bible reference for authority to be given to a “faithful slave” group, and esp for saying the 144,000 has authority. All this crap is simply a big game of biblical connect the dots. Here is the formula
Faithful slave = 144,000 = 24 elders = governing body. (oh yeah, no scripture anywhere in the bible or even a concept describes a governing body. That is a pure invention. Total scriptural fiction.)
That’s it! Total scriptures it takes to get that? FOUR. Four completely out of context scriptures that don’t in any way connect, other then that Freddie Franz said they do.
My only hope in posting this is that if you think that at some point you were disobedient to god because you broke a rule that this group of men made up, just remember that to invent rules, they had to invent themselves first. Scripturally, the governing body doesn’t exist.
The Truth From the Bible About the 144,000
by AllTimeJeff 24 Replies latest watchtower bible
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AllTimeJeff
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Hellrider
Yeah. And especially this:
144,000 = 24 elders
Where did they get that one from! 24 elders? is that like...another group (of groups) then, 144000 : 24 = roughly 7000 pr. "group" (darn, where is my calculator...) There is no connection. They are two distinct groups. They could just as "logically" have equated the 144000 with the angels of the 4 corners of the earth or something. It`s just as "logical". But no, they needed the group with the crowns, to establish auuthority!
But this part, this "argument", this long list of scripturally unfounded assumptions, I doubt most JWs have ever thought much about it. They instinctively shy away from it, because they can`t understand it. And the sad part is that they believe that it`s too "complicated" for their little brains, after all, they`re just of the "great crowd", they have limited insight into the "higher matters", they just follow the slave and everything will be alright...while in reality, they are shying away from these "complicated" things, not because they are complicated, but because they are scripturally unfounded leaps of "faith", and deep, deep down, they can instinctively feel this, but they avoid the conclusions due to the implications this would have.
Pheew...I think I sprained my brain there...
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jwfacts
What a good summary. I cannot believe that after all these years this is the first time that I realised that the bible does not say the 144,000 will be kings and priests, it is the 24 elders that will be. I have WTS rhetoric so engraved into my brain that I still find it hard to read what the Bible says, instead of what the WTS says it says.
(Revelation 5:9-10) . . .And they sing a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth."
I always thought Rev 5:9 was in the same paragraph of the bible that mentions the 144,000, but it is not! Wow!
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oompa
Hellrider, funny you mention the four angels at the corners holding back the wind. we just studied that in rev book and we dont believe that simple statment either. no, has to be 4 group of angels, and stupid little groups of three apparantly, look at the full page picture in sure enough, not four angels, but two groups of three angels at two corners, so we really get 12 for the job----no expanation!!
oompa
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IP_SEC
You guys obviously dont understand that the FDS has been given full control over Christ belongings on earth since 1918 (Yes that is in Rev too ) They have a deeper understanding of the bible than any of you could possibly have. The Rev is like a letter to the FDS on earth, how could they of all people misunderstand it?
This is the primary reason most of you apostates fall away from the truth. I feel sorry for you all when the great trib breaks out.
*praying for all of you*
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TopHat
You guys obviously dont understand that the FDS has been given full control over Christ belongings on earth since 1918 (Yes that is in Rev too )
How do you know? Because they say so?
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justhuman
The Great Crowd shares the same characteristics with the 144.000
1. They wear white robs
2.They washed thier robs in the Blood of the Lamb
3.They are in FRONT of God
4.Revelation 19:1 says about a voice of a Great Crowd that IS in heaven
The only reason that Booze Jo came with this stupid explanation, is because he wanted to limited the heavenly class, and promote the 2 class dogma.
Stupid damn idiot, with NO Biblical backround, and without knowing Greek language...The JW's are pathetic uneducated, miserable people, and their leaders have a place in hell...
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AllTimeJeff
To IP_SEC
I don't begrudge your right to be a JW or to follow the governing body. That is your choice.
You guys obviously dont understand that the FDS has been given full control over Christ belongings on earth since 1918 (Yes that is in Rev too )
Actually, that is in the Revelation Climax book, not Revelation. The faithful and discreet slave is only mentioned once, in Mt 24:45-47. Only JW's link the slave to the 144,000. When you look at the 2 instances of the 144,000 in Revelation, they in no way match a description of the "faithful slave." Would you sit here and deny that the 144,000 are a choir only? That in both Rev 7 and 14 that there is no power given to them? That they are a group that is just there and other then singing and being taken from the earth, Revelation gives no clue as to what they do? And how is it that this number isn't symbolic? The very tribes that they are assigned to in Revelation 7 aren't even the same as the ones in Exodus?
It is interesting that there is only reference in parable form as to the fact that this slave class feeds first and is then appointed over all Christ has. It is a fact though that the rest of the gospels and Pauls letters do not refer to this group as receiving authority. Not even Jesus or Paul ever bothered with the concept.
They have a deeper understanding of the bible than any of you could possibly have. The Rev is like a letter to the FDS on earth, how could they of all people misunderstand it?
What? Where does it say that? Do you know how many religions claim the bible and Revelation as their own? In the Rev Climax book, the GB links Revelation as being written to "the John Class". What logic do they have? Because 'just like John receieved this directly from Jesus, so today, Jesus uses a John like class..' (i.e. US, because we said so.) I encourage you to please be honest. Isn't it true they only claim this deep understanding? Isn't it true that they only claim that Revelation is written to the FDS only? There is no other proof other then that they claim it like a prospector and an old mine.
This is the primary reason most of you apostates fall away from the truth. I feel sorry for you all when the great trib breaks out.
FYI, I left because Jerusalem wasn't destroyed in 607 coupled with the fact that the governing body hypocritically was a part of the UN for their own purposes. They also believe that the entire bible prophesied about them, and that Elijah = Rutherford and Elishah = Knorr. Absolutely shocking. And non sensical.
As for me dying, you think Jehovah is going to destroy me, Catholics and Baptists think I am going to burn in hell, Muslims view me as an infidel because I don't believe in Allah. With all respect, get in line. Almost all religions teach that non believers are going to be destroyed by their god. If god exists, I am sure he gets a real kick out of it.
I can see you are sincere, but you bring nothing to this analyzation of scripture other then your statement of faith. While I respect your right to believe, the only thing you told me was that you are right because the FDS said so and that I am going to die. Thanks!
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Ancientofdays
Reading you posts , I've been going to focus another insubstantial claim.
Starting question is : how can the 144.000 sing in front of the 24 elders (Rev 14:3) if they are the same group ?
Answer to this question is found in the Revelation climax book (cap. 29, pag 201, par.10) is : they are the same group but from a different angle; the 144.000 are the remanent on the earth, instead the 24 elder are already death and in the heaven ...(moreless it says this , sorry I cannot quote as I have not CD-ROM in english). So the 144.000 are singing from the earth in front of their brother already in heaven.
BUT ... how can the 144.000 be on the earth if in Rev 14:1, in the same vision contest ,just 2 verses above, they have been seen together with the Lord on the Zion ????
that struggle me
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AllTimeJeff
BUT ... how can the 144.000 be on the earth if in Rev 14:1, in the same vision contest ,just 2 verses above, they have been seen together with the Lord on the Zion ????
Ancient,
Are you trying to think again? You know that the governing body doesn't like questions that are logical.
Excellent points. When you really examine the charecters in Revelation that JW's use, you can see how much of a convoluted game of connect the dots this is.