The First 2007 Christmas Thread.... countdown is T-minus 119 days... (page 3)

Sassy

Speaking of Christmas Cards

My address has changed (yes again...sorry) since last year... I'll need to update addresses with people

AK - Jeff

Ok - everyone get a glass of wine - when Silent's clock hits 117 Days and 17 hours, we shall toast! Another pagan and apostate act that I now enjoy.

Ready?

Jeff

My stereo just played Collin Raye's version of 'It Could Happen Again' about how the Germans and Allies broke bread together in 1914 during WWI in Christmas truce. It always make me think this is the reason for the season.

BTW - 'clink'

Jeff

brunnhilde

I know EXACTLY how you feel, AK-Jeff! I've been buying Xmas presents for my son since March, lol and I need to stop or maybe just hide some until his birthday in February. I love Christmas carols and the decorating and all of it. This year we're in a new area so no dubs know where we live. I'm really looking forward to the whole thing! I'm even going to decorate the office where I work.

brunn

Mum

My daughter and I delight in Christmas! She was brought up as a JW, so she really makes up for lost time.

Let me share a favorite Christmas memory from my pre-JW life. When I was 5 years old and my sister was 3, it was Christmas eve, and we were at my grandparents' in rural Tennessee. Life was elemental then. My mom and grandmother had our gifts and needed to wrap them and put them under the tree. So my grandpa (a dear, sweet man) was put in charge of keeping my sister and me busy.

My grandpa loaded us into his old green Hudson and told us he had heard Santa Claus had been seen in the area. He drove us around, asking us to keep looking up at the sky to spy out the old man in a sleigh. We didn't see him, of course, so my grandpa said that "he might come around the other way." So we drove some more, all the while wide-eyed with wonder, craning our little necks. Still, we didn't see anything unusual.

When we got home, sure enough, Santa had been there. We had a tiny wooden table with two chairs; each chair had a red Rudolph-the-red-nosed-reindeer decal on the back. Then we had baby dolls in little blankets. We didn't get a lot for Christmas in those days, but that only made the things we did get more special. Unlike kids who get an overwhelming amount of "stuff," we remembered what we got.

By the time my granddaughter came along, we were no longer dubs. We would go see "The Nutcracker" and come back to homemade Christmas cookies and hot chocolate when she was small. She got to make decorations at school with the other kids. We were so pleased to see her enjoying normal things.

To future generations' participation in the culture,

SandraC

freyd

How Should the Christian View Thanksgiving and Christmas? http://reslight.net/prints/christmas.html We are not told to celebrate these holidays in the Bible. Christians, however, are free to observe or not observe any day as long as it done as to God. (Romans 14:5,6) Nevertheless, this does not give us liberty to bring idolatrous practices into our worship. In this regard we might think of the day and the celebration itself as two different things. All days belong to our Heavenly Father, including the fourth Thursday of November (or any other day of Thanksgiving) as well as December 25, and all other days, regardless of what celebrations of men may occur on those days. The apostle Paul tells us that a true worshipper desiring to worship in spirit and truth should realize that an idol is nothing. At the same time, he tells us that he does not want us to be making offerings to demons by means of idols. Nevertheless, some Christians read 1 Corinthians 8 and 10 and get out of it almost the very opposite of what Paul was actually saying ["Flee from idolatry"], and somehow arrive at the conclusion that Paul was approving of eating food sacrificed to idols or giving approval to use of idols of the heathen as long as the Christian himself views the idol as nothing. Traditions from the popular church as well as faulty translation of what Paul said is to be blamed for this misunderstanding. Some come away with the idea that Paul is saying that it is up to the Christian's conscience as to whether to partake or not, but Paul plainly says that what we should consider is, not our own conscience, but the "conscience of the other", that is, whether our participation may embolden another in his conscience to offer food to idols, thus actually committing idolatry. Many conclude, through application of the modern meaning of the word "offend", that as long as we are not being disagreeable to another's conscience, it is okay to use the idols of the heathen in celebrations. In other words, some have read into what Paul said that if the other person's conscience approves of using these idols, that then it is okay for us to use them. Additionally, it is read into this that if the other person's conscience thinks that it is wrong to use the idols, that we should not use the idols. Basically, many have read into what Paul almost the opposite of what he really said. In reality, the Greek word translated "offend" in these verses means to cause one to sin, especially in another's conscience, so as to cause one to be emboldened to actually think it is okay to give offerings to idols. The celebrations that occur on those days often do involve much idolatry and occultism which the Christian should want to be careful to avoid. The apostle is telling us to "flee from idolatry", not to embrace the idols of the heathen. As we understand it, 1 Corinthians 8-10 (as it appears in the Greek) shows that we are sharers in another's idolatry if we give others the impression that we are saying their idolatry is okay, even if we know the idol is nothing. And realizing that the things offered to idols are offered to demons, Paul says that he does not want us to be sharers with demons. The only exception that Paul allows as lawful, that is, permitted according to the Mosaic law, is when the worshiper of Yahweh is not informed that the food has been offered to an idol. The believer is under no obligation to ask if the food has been offered to idol, but should partake of the food as from Yahweh, for the food itself is not made unclean by being offered to an idol, which we know is nothing. But if we are told that the food has been offered to an idol, we should refrain from eating, so as not to give approval to the sin of the other, and thus becoming partakers in the others' idolatry, and cause our conscience to be judged by another person's conscience. For more on this, see: Idolatry Provokes Yahweh's Anger It is good to give thanks every day; it is good if we can use the world's holidays in some way to bring praise to our Heavenly Father. A special effort in witnessing is good on Thanksgiving day; some hold Bible conventions on Thanksgiving Day. However, the celebration itself, as displayed in its parades, and on the streets, has as one of its main ingredients: the Santa Claus idol. Almost every year we can hear someone say something like: "What is a Thanksgiving parade without Santa Claus?" So it has become something of an extension of the Christmas celebration. Regarding Christmas: Many practices concerning Christmas, such as putting presents under a tree directly mimics the heathen occultic practices of presenting presents (offerings) to their idols. Of course, no one generally claims to actually worship idols -- not even the heathen. According to many of the heathen religions, they say that the offering is in the works of presentation, the wrapping, the making of things beautiful for their god or honorable dead. Even though many of the heathen worshipers of idols do not call their idols "gods", yet from the Biblical standpoint they are worshiping idols. After the offering the people eat the food or the presents are given (after being offered to the god) to the persons for whom they are meant. (We can see this practice amongst the Buddhists. Also some time ago a documentary on TV showed the same practices on many islands of the Pacific.) The Christmas tree mimics this practice, and, as evidenced by the excitement surrounding the carnality of the occasion, it should become apparent to those whose hearts are seeking to worship in spirit and truth that there is some kind of idolizing of these things taking place. Again, almost every Christmas we can hear someone say: "What's Christmas with a Christmas tree?" Almost every Christmas we can hear someone speak of the Christmas tree as "spirit of Christmas" or Santa Claus as the "spirit of Christmas." Whatever they mean by the "spirit" of Christmas, they show that they consider these material things exert a great force upon their minds and hearts in their observance of these days. Thus they give evidence of how their worship is attached to these material things. In many places the "Christmas tree" is said to represent Christ. Some claim it represents the "paradise tree" or "the tree of life." Additionally, many Christians know we should avoid occultism, but at the same they do not realize that many Christmas practices are actually based on occultic rituals. Thus many are easily led into participating in the carnal excitement of occultic practices associated with these holidays. Many Bible students often repeat a vow, wherein they state that they will seek to avoid anything akin to occultism. It would be well if these matters be kept in mind and heart at the time of the Christmas celebration (as well as all of the worldly celebrations). The Christmas tree actually has its roots in heathen idol worship. While many relate the source of the modern Christmas tree to pagan rituals of Germany, the usage of a decorated tree in worship can be traced all the way back to ancient Babylon. See: Mythology and the Bible Probably the greatest occultic emphasis at Christmas time is Santa Claus and his "magical" reindeer. There is the famous story repeated often at Christmas time, "The Night Before Christmas," in which read these words, "He was chubby and plump - a right jolly old elf." What is an elf? An elf, according to Webster's New World Dictionary, is "a tiny, often prankish fairy, supposedly exercising magic powers and haunting woods and hills." And what is a fairy? Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary states that the word "fairy" is from the Latin name of the "goddess of fate." In the definition, this dictionary states: "a mythical being of folklore and romance usually having diminutive human form and magic powers." And what is "magic"? The same dictionary shows that the word magic is from magos magus, sorcerer, and is defined as "the use of means (as charms or spells) believed to have supernatural power over natural forces", "magic rites or incantations", "an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source", "something that seems to cast a spell." What a wonderful sorcerer this Santa is pictured to be: he seemingly has all the attributes of God Almighty himself. One Christmas Carol says: "He sees you when you're sleeping, He knows when you're awake, He knows if you've been bad or good". The story is told to young children that he flies around in his sleigh, evidently in many places all at once, to deliver toys to "good" little boys and girls all around the earth. Movies and cartoons are made displaying the supposed "magic" of Santa and Christmas season. While this is fantasy, this kind of fantasy is also heavily mixed with occultic magic and idolatry. What does the Bible say about "magic"? Is this not one way that Satan makes what is evil appear to be good, and what is good appear to evil? (Genesis 41:8, 24; Exodus 7:11, 22; 8:7; Daniel 1:20; 2:2, 10, 27; 4:7, 9; 5:11; Acts 19:19; Galatians 5:20) And we have shown in our document, Idolatry Provokes Yahweh's Anger, what the scriptures say about idolatry. There is another popular occult practice at Christmas concerning the mistletoe. Of course, the mistletoe itself is one of God's creations, and of itself can neither cast a spell or work any magic, but the occult practice of "kissing under the mistletoe" is widely mimicked at Christmas time, and many advocate the occultic belief that "if a couple in love exchanges a kiss under the mistletoe, it is interpreted as a promise to marry, as well as a prediction of happiness and long life." (Kissing Under the Mistetoe, by Atham Z) http://realmagick.com/articles/23/2223.html Yet we believe that the Christian, remembering that all days belong to God, can make use of the Christmas celebration to glorify God, for the occasion does cause many people's minds to be easily turned to the one for whom the celebration is supposed to honor. Thus it is a good opportunity for putting out tracts, offering literature and for Bible discussion. As far as the celebration itself is concerned, we feel the Christian should stay away from it as far as possible, lest we should present ourselves as condoning the idolatry and occultic practices of the celebration. But as for remembering Christ, we should do this every day, including December 25. During the holiday seasons, children especially are drawn to the excitement and glitter of the celebration. For the Christian parent, it may easy to see that this attraction is carnal, not spiritual, but it may be hard for children to understand why they should not get involved in such, as occultic practices are often given much emphasis in the school activities. Here Satan works greatly upon the emotions, not only of the children, but also of Christian parents who would wish to keep their children free from these activities. But the parent should remember the children are a gift from Yahweh, and that they are in charge of Yahweh's gift. Satan influences one to think that if the child doesn't participate that some eternal psychological damage will result. Satan may lead parents to think that it is okay, since the children are not consecrated. (In actuality, children of the consecrated are in a sense included in the consecration of the parent.) We would not want to set any rules or regulations for parents in this matter, but each must consider these matters in accord with his own conscience and that of the other. Many like to give presents at that time; there is nothing wrong with giving presents on December 25 or any other day. Again, if a Christian gives a present, and if it is given with a gift wrapping, our suggestion is to try to keep the wrapping as plain as possible, without the winged female angels, Santa Claus, Christmas trees, etc., -- the idols common to Christmas. Likewise with greeting cards. (A greeting card usually expresses a prayer.) If a Christian gives a greeting card, we suggest that one avoid those that say "Merry Christmas", etc., and rather choose those without any of the highly praised materialolatry associated with Christmas (they are hard to find) or else make their own cards. Also we would suggest not using the expression "present for Christmas", as could be taken to imply a gift given in approval of the idolatrous practices that take place at that time, even as eating of food offered as a present to an idol could cause one to participate in the idolatry of another. The same with decorations; the true Christian knows that decorations are nothing in themselves. But the world tends to idolize the Christmas decorations, and even a supposed image of the baby Jesus (as often displayed in the manger scene). In some places presents are presented to "the baby Jesus" before being given to the persons they are intended for, again mimicking the heathen idolatrous practices. In some instances, some even pray to the baby Jesus (that is, they pray directly before the image of the baby in the manager scene, often bowing before the image). Our suggestion is that if any decorations are used, a simple decoration displaying a scripture or two is better. In all these things, we need to consider our own conscience, but not our own especially, but rather the conscience of others, to see if by our actions we are leading others into believing that it is okay to idolize the things associated with Christmas. We who have the firstfruits of the spirit still need to be careful, because of our fallen flesh and its desires; we, too, may be deceived that we are not engaged in idolatry when in fact we are, even as Eve was deceived. Nor can we judge others who might participate in these things in a greater degree than we ourselves condone; their judgment will have to be left up to our Master. Only in the case where one is openly and manifestly showing blatant unrepentant idolatry toward any material thing (as bowing before and openly offering prayers to an idol) do we feel that the ecclesia should step in. -- Luke 12:47,48; 1 Corinthians 5:11-13; 2 Corinthians 5:8. We might add that December 25 (or a date near that) is also celebrated in similar manner (often without any reference to Christ) by almost all of the modern neo-pagan occultic groups. They are very adamant that "Christmas" is not a Christian celebration, bur rather pagan, although the Christians changed its name. Nevertheless, many of these neo-pagans actually claim to be Christian. Again the pagans do not claim to worship idols; they claim that the symbols and decorations are only as images, representations, or reminders. (Of course, scriptually, when one gives to an image, representation, reminder, etc., that which should go only to the Creator, then that image, representation, etc., becomes an idol.) The following sites are neo-pagan and are cited, not to encourage pagan religion, but to show how modern pagans view many of the Christmas practices: http://www.geocities.com/kotonii/sabbats.html Yule, December 20-23 http://www.tylwythteg.com/wheel.html What is the "Wheel of the Year"? http://www.magicwicca.com/wicca/yule.htm What is Wicca? http://realmagick.com/articles/23/2223.html Kissing Under the Mistletoe, by Atham Z http://www.witchvox.com/white/wyulehistory.html You Call It Christmas, We Call It Yule, by Peg Aloi

SnakesInTheTower

sad emo:

all my Christmas stock will be arriving next week

I worked retail 7 years (8 christmas seasons)...hated every second of it.

Really, labor day?!!! For crying out loud! Yet I seen it with my own 2 eyes today. I hate shopping. I do a lot of my shopping online and stay out of stores as much as possible.

Snakes (...)

AK - Jeff

Freyd

Paragraphs are our friends.

Looks like you posted an entire article with oddly Jwlike ideas. I imagine it comes from one of the 'Armstrong spinoff religions', but have no interest in finding out. My thread is about enjoying the secular or religious celebration called Christmas - not analyzing it to death. I had damn enough of that when I was a blind follower of blind leaders. Please take your positions and start your own thread if you wish to dispute the idea of Christmas - that is your right - but do it in your own little corner please.

Now - on with the Celebration!!

Jeff

Sassy

yup.. too hard to read that....

any way.. I am excited to note that I have already purchased severa Xmas gifts for this yr already!

AK - Jeff

In all fairness to Freyd - here is the article in clickable format; http://reslight.net/prints/christmas.html

Jeff

The First 2007 Christmas Thread.... countdown is T-minus 119 days...

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