by erynw 26 Replies latest watchtower bible
The Noah story is just that, it's not scientifically possible. There are too many conundra and complications to go into.
But Jesus believed it. He was quoted as saying "As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the return of the Son of man...." .
So Jesus based his teaching on an event that didn't happen. This raises serious doubts about Jesus and his teaching (or the recording thereof).
It's difficult to comment on a program I haven't seen so I will try not to go there, but every culture as the Jws bang their drum, has a legend about a giant flood that nearly wiped out humankind - and were it not true, then many cultures would have legends about volcanic activity or elsewise instead which is a valid point. Plus, the lack of human genetic variability shows that we were almost wiped out as a race - as also was the Cheetah (which Scientists say was down to one pair ! )but no mention is made by scientists that this happened to all species, which you would expect - unless they are afraid to invigorate the Christian Community who have made things very difficult for the Dinosaur (unfossilized remains) findings making Scientists unwilling to tell the full story - but then, why shouldn't they jump up and down when something supports their beliefs.
But, the story gets more interesting - the south Americans at the time knew that a catastrophic flood was imminent and buried artifacts - which to me seems a slight descrepancy with the Bible account. One thing is likely - maybe the Bible account of Genesis is not entirelty based on facts itself ? The Egyptian pyramids are built to the almost exact circumference of the Earth (out by about 5 yards or something) and are placed in the exact postition where one of the main constelations would have been 28,000 years ago - man does not acquire such genius to construct these things over night - society needs to evolve to this level of greatness - and Incan structure, alledged Chinese Pyramids share a startling simularity - surely leading us to conclude that they all are remnants, migrants of an older civilization, more advanced ? But then, that could all be Satan trying to mislead us.
How open minded are we really ?
LanDi. The legends that we've been told exist about floods all over the world could very likely have happened. Because floods do happen. If the polar icecaps melt in the near future and sea levels rise, that will mean that catastrophic flooding will occur. God will not have caused this. The very fact that there are legends from around the world suggests to me that the people living there at the time survived the flooding, and recorded it, and were not wiped out by a god who, although perfect, is somehow capable of making mistakes and regretting his actions.
Landi, I enjoyed your comment and agree with you. Civilizations have risen and fallen on this rock before us. The Noah story is just that; a story comprised of vocal tradition passed down for thousands upon thousands of years. The Earth has had catastrophic events/extinctions several times. There is a recent discovery (I will post some links if I can find it again) that some 12,000 years ago several large bolides impacted the ocean. These impacts are said to have caused tsunamis 100s of meters high that ripped across the globe.
Check out "Fingerprints of the Gods" and other writings by Hancock and Bauval
LanDi:
It's difficult to comment on a program I haven't seen so I will try not to go there, but every culture as the Jws bang their drum, has a legend about a giant flood that nearly wiped out humankind - and were it not true, then many cultures would have legends about volcanic activity or elsewise instead which is a valid point.
The need for human settlements to be located near large bodies of water inevitably leads to floods. It is no surprise that the myths and legends of many people (including the Jews) contain flood stories. The Epic of Gilgamesh is far older than the biblical flood story and appears to be its source.
Plus, the lack of human genetic variability shows that we were almost wiped out as a race - as also was the Cheetah (which Scientists say was down to one pair ! )
You're right, it does appear that the human population went through a bottleneck around 2 million years ago, which may have been the speciation event that led to modern humans. There are also suggestions that the population went through another bottleneck about 200,000 years ago when the human population was reduced to around 8,000 individuals.
Cheetahs appear to have gone through a similar bottleneck around 10,000 years ago or earlier, although the population was probably never as low as a single breeding pair.
Neither of these facts in any way supports the flood myth and in fact provide further evidence that it could not have happened.
but no mention is made by scientists that this happened to all species, which you would expect -
It didn't happen to all species. The cheetah is notable because it clearly exhibits dramatically less genetic variation than most other species, indicating that while the cheetah went through a population bottleneck, other species did not.
unless they are afraid to invigorate the Christian Community who have made things very difficult for the Dinosaur (unfossilized remains) findings making Scientists unwilling to tell the full story - but then, why shouldn't they jump up and down when something supports their beliefs.
I can't quite parse that, but you seem to be saying that scientists ae hiding evidence that would vindicate the ludicrous claims of fundamentalist Christians. If so, they are soing an absolutely fantastic job. They seem to have been able to hide every scrap of evidence that would support the bible myths, and fabricated thousands of tonnes of evidence that contradicts it. And nobody in the scientific community has ever blown the whistle on them. Do you really think that's what happens, or is it possible that the reason all the evidence seems to show that the bible ids just the mythology of an ancient people is because that's actually the case?
The "Flood" could have happened just as the Bible says, but not how it was interpreted to say. Noah could well be a historical character, he could have built an ark, and the Flood could in reality have been very localized. Perhaps it was just a warning about a pending natural disaster and the writers (Moses) turned it into something more to suit their purpose. As for Jesus, you have to parse very carefully what he actually says about the "days" of Noah. He never said, for instance, that the flood was global, only that it came and swept them all away. Well, the same could be said about other events that came and swept them all away, except they weren't global. Just a thought.
zack,
Yes, it is an argument about words and what they mean. Forcing "world" to mean "planet" is the problem, just like forcing God to mean the "Supreme Being" also distorts the texts. The word "World" only included that population effected not the planet. Another scripture like this is: John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. John is not saying that "He" made the planet. John is only talking about all of humanity in its variouse races and organizations. Only such could gain salvation by this "He." This is easily seen by: 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joseph
but every culture as the Jws bang their drum, has a legend about a giant flood that nearly wiped out humankind - and were it not true, then many cultures would have legends about volcanic activity or elsewise instead which is a valid point.
Many cultures have some myth of a bloodsucking demon/spirit/beast. Does that mean that vampires once roamed the earth?
But suppose we are meant to take the cross-cultural whispers as evidence of some ancient catastrophe, why must we assume that the Biblical version is the correct one?
INQ
Nice healthy debate!!
These are just my personal comments on the issue.
I'd just add my 2 cents about judging the present water on the planet to compensate for the flood. The Bible says "winds" were used to dissipate the water. This could have included great waterspouts that funneled the water out into outer space. Thus strict Biblical fundamentalists wouldn't expect to make a comparison for confirmation of the present water and ice here in confirmation of the global flood, other than making that incidental observation, which instead would confirm that an excess of the water was removed. In the meantime, we all know quite well there is water in outer space since it accummulates around comets that come close to the earth. So the current amount of water and ice on the planet is a NON-ISSUE.
As far as the local flood versus global flood goes, various cultures with legends about the global flood is definitely consistent with all of these cultures coming from the same common famly tree, which would have been Noah. Further that all mankind are a single genotype worldwide also suggests a single common origin. So the local flood story is NON-APPLICABLE and INCONCLUSIVE.
As far as the pyramids go and the intellectual capacity involved, I would hasten to remind that it only takes one brilliant person who knows about these things and an administration that supports them. Same as today. Everybody is not Einstein but the entire culture that acknowledges that brilliance benefits from that genius. There needed to have been thus only a few brilliant architects commissioned to do the work and a lot of slave labor. The Bible suggests that different groups are given special knowledge and skills in certain areas that were perfected and then passed on to later generations. Some people are just naturally smart. Like a young genius I saw on Oprah that's a doctor or something. We superimpose far too much of our own cultural biases to the past. In the olden days everyone wasn't literate. It was something specialized. Plus who knows how much influence the demon angels attributed? In the meantime, the zodiac we even have today was invented in ancient Sumer. It's the same one passed on to the rest of the cultures, adopted by the Egyptians and later on the Greeks and then passed on to us. So the genius of one ancient man is still in effect. Also keep in mind that everybody is born dumb. They know nothing. Knowledge is passed on from the culture and the parents. If the child of two college professors who go on safari got lost in the jungle and raised by natives that child would not carry the knowledge of Western culture in his genes. In the meantime, if in turn those two college professors found an abandoned native child in the jungle and adopted it, took it back to England and put it through the best schools that native child could likely turn out quite impressive. So again, INCONCLUSIVE. When we look at great architecture, think of individual brilliance employed and put to use, not the entire culture, and not the incredibly stupid idea that man's intelligence was gradual over time as if he rose from the ape to his present level of intelligence, without a "missing link" anywhere in sight. Give me a break, paleeeze!
Finally, what about evidence of God and that he inspired the Bible? I've spoken with God personally myself. I'm of the anointed. I have seen the evidence of how holy spirit works among Christ's secret followers who have to meet and exchange information in a perfectly secretive manner. Christs secret society is protected and assisted by holy spirit. We are also seeing visions. I saw Jesus Christ once who appeared at the Kingdom Hall while I was trying to convince another young brother that probably if he felt he was of the "anointed" he was because the Bible says that the 11th-hour workers would become anointed at the last moment so that everybody ends up being invited into the heavenly class. And then just a FLASH took place and I saw the hem of this bright white garment walking toward the brother. It was amazing. It was Jesus himself. But it was the same description the Bible gives about the flashing white garment. Same with Jehovah. When I met him I was surprised he had this sort of mod-squad Afro, like the Jackson-5 used to wear! He looked like a fair-skinned black man. Yet when you read the Bible he is described as having hair like fine wool. So it has consistency with the Bible. Point being, modern miracles and experiences are contributing to further confidence in what the Bible says, whether or not scientists have found every last molecule of water that was involved with the flood or not. Sometimes there is not enough evidence of some things in the Bible. On the other hand, if you see modern-day miracles going on, then you figure ancient miracles are possible as well. So believing or not believing the flood is a little different for the anointed. We tend to think that scientists either don't have enough information to make an absolute conclusion about the flood, or possibly God is up to his usual tricks making the evidence confounding just to trip up the "wise in their own cunning." So while science lacks absolute proof of the flood, we do have some corroboration here and there of the possibility, like tropical vegetation that has been found underneath the ice of Antartica suggesting that once the poles were a tropical climate. Or mammoths being found in Siberia. So this could be a spiritual test for mankind. Believe the Bible and accept God's worth as truth. Or be fooled by the scientists who could in turn be fooled by God, and then when Armageddon comes you get whacked for being a non-believer, whereas those who were smart enough to trust the Bible and not scientists, who only see part of the whole picture, get rewarded with eternal life. So right, some of us are in a better position to know whether there was a global flood or not. The anointed are not concerned in the least about the truth of God's word. "For those with much, more is given." But I do feel sort of sorry for those who have to deal with the confusing and misinterpreted so-called "facts." I know most can't go there, but it's just a different perspective for the anointed than for those not so directly connected with God. It does make a difference.
Ooops! I know that was more like 25 cents than 2 cents, but there you have it.
Enjoy your debate folks! I don't need to see the program.
JCanon
This could have included great waterspouts that funneled the water out into outer space.
Okay...now that I've cleaned my monitor, I'm off to the restroom to remove coffee residue from my nostrils...thanks!
