Prove to me Jesus existed...............

by passive suicide 51 Replies latest jw friends

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  Double Edge

  (the following is from the University of Cut and Paste)

  Tacitus, a Roman historian who lived during the latter part of the first century C.E., wrote: “Christus [Latin for “Christ”], from whom the name [Christian] had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus.”—THE COMPLETE WORKS OF TACITUS (NEW YORK, 1942), “THE ANNALS,” BOOK 15, PAR. 44.

  Mara Bar-Serapion

  Some time after 70 A.D., Mara Bar-Sarapion, who was probably a Stoic philosopher, wrote a letter to his son in which he describes how the Jews executed their King. Claiming to be a king was one of the charges the religious authorities used to scare Pontius Pilate into agreeing to execute Jesus.
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  jwfacts

  There were many Christs at the time, as there are now. Jesus even said that there would be many false christs, and that if anyone claims to be Christ not to follow them. (sorry but i dont have access to the scriptures to get the exact quotes) I get the impression that Jesus may have been one of many mystics at the time. The reason he become immortalised was that Paul chose him as basis of a new religion. The first of the NT books was not written till 30 years after Jesus death so it was not hard to make a narrative of Jesus fit any required notions of the time.
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  LittleToe

  prove that Jesus existed at all..using anything besides the Bible....or the writings of Josephus

  Your proposition is ludicrous. You might equally have asked us to prove that Julius Caesar existed without making any reference to works of antiquity...

  I'm not stating that the claims of the bible are verifiable with regards to what he is alleged to have done but your opening gambit of proving the historical reality of any living individual in such a manner, without reference to any of the evidences that would need to be used to support such a claim, is completely illogical.

  If you don't want to believe in the bible, so be it, but try not to base your new beliefs on such shaky and illogical grounds when there's so much more you could have a go at.
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  passive suicide

  Little Toe.......Do you have a Library Card, Drivers license, Birth Certificate, Tax Record, Doctors record, School Record?.............anything that proves you were here?..........all I'm asking for is some proof outside of a record that would have an alterior motive to prove Jesus' existence. Seeing as how He caused such a huge stink.I don't think that's asking too much, nor do I believe that it is ludicrous. In Fact I feel it is ludicrous to believe only ONE source on a matter that has a HUGE impact not only on myself....but all of mankind. I make no judgement either way as to weather an individual believes Jesus existed, or not. but I feel it merits serious discussion. I don't debate the fact Pilate, or Caiaphas existed.that record is made known by NEUTRAL sources. I DO however debate the interactions which supposedly took place with the so far unconvincing figure of Jesus. This topic was not brought up to be nit-picky....I don't have the time for it (nor the patience).
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  dobbie

  I suppose you could call me agnostic bu tleaning towards atheism but i think it likely Jesus existed. I now tend to think of him as a sort of man who was good with drawing people with his personality, like a faith healer you get nowadays who people flock towards, and then he sort of set up his own cult like following and religion.
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  Narkissos

  A discussion of Double Edge's references and others, here.
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  LittleToe

  PS:

  Do you have a Library Card, Drivers license, Birth Certificate, Tax Record, Doctors record, School Record

  Send me your fax number and I'll send you copies of his:

  • Sanhedrin Library Card
  • Colt Driver's license
  • Bethlehem Birth Certificate
  • Roman and Temple Tax Records
  • Doctor Luke Health Record
  • Nazareth Vocational High School Record

  They're a little charred after the Jerusalem fires of 70AD but still servicable. I can't guarantee that they've not been doctored, however

  Sadly I can't provide similar evidence for Julius Caser, however, so must come to the conclusion that he never existed
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  diamondblue1974

  Your proposition is ludicrous. You might equally have asked us to prove that Julius Caesar existed without making any reference to works of antiquity...

  Damn it Ross - you got there before me!

  I dont think we can say one way or another whether he existed in the physical sense but I believe there are some good arguments to suggest that he did. There is also argument to suggest that Christ as a deity exists in a symbolic sense but is merely a personification of a previously held saviour myth which pre dates Christ.

  Who knows?

  G /|\
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  the dreamer dreaming

  FACTS

  1- the first author, Paul, never met anything but what today would be called a desert hallucination.

  2-the 2nd author, Mark, worked for Paul... as did Luke, who likely copied alot from Mark.

  3. Matthew is of unknown origin and no evidence indicating that it actually came from any real Matthew. same for John, which is seen by Many modern scholars to be a production of the 2nd century church to combat gnostics.

  4. there are 14 or so prior similar stories from all over the world, likely known by the merchants of the trade routes. and people such as Paul who learned much from greeks and others.

  5. The mystery schools existed at that time and had the habit of making multi-layered stories.

  6. all historians that mention Jesus only verify that the STORY of Jesus was well known, which no one doubts

  7. the Mormons of today believe in magical gold plates and are willing to die for that belief...proving that one is born every minute and two to take him.

  8. lots of other stories about Jesus and his merry men were written and discarded... some were accepted by different groups for various periods... lots of talented authors liked to add back stories to darth vader and luke...er...Jesus.
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  Midget-Sasquatch

  all I'm asking for is some proof outside of a record that would have an alterior motive to prove Jesus' existence. Seeing as how He caused such a huge stink.I don't think that's asking too much, nor do I believe that it is ludicrous. In Fact I feel it is ludicrous to believe only ONE source on a matter that has a HUGE impact not only on myself....but all of mankind. I make no judgement either way as to weather an individual believes Jesus existed, or not. but I feel it merits serious discussion. I don't debate the fact Pilate, or Caiaphas existed.that record is made known by NEUTRAL sources.

  I'm in total agreement with you about wanting more than just pro-chrisitian sources. But Cyrus and Narcissos have pointed out how there's evidence within the Gospels that can reasonably meet your criteria at least indirectly. It doesn't make sense that the Gospels would incorporate and then try to explain away unflattering "stories". Its more reasonable to accept that there actually were these historical memories or traditions circulating about (i.e. Jesus was baptized by John) and had to be counterde. Not direct evidence, I know. But I think its acceptable and strong enough to at least make the existence of a historical man called Jesus probable.