By now the talk is over
How could it be over when Tuesday September 25 is still some 3 days away?
#4 Talk on Tues Sept 25 - Blood
by still_in74 43 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Frequent_Fader_Miles
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parakeet
If it's a subject that troubles your conscience, don't contribute to your feelings of guilt by giving the talk. Catch the "flu" if you have to. IMO, there's no way to water down this murderous WTS policy enough to make it harmless to JWs. They won't understand the "fractions" nonsense. Not even the GB understands it.
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Homerovah the Almighty
This blood issue and all of it's stupid abnormalities of reason has to be maintained simply for legal reasons and any possible law suits that may occur if changed.
Therefore there will no new light on this subject matter, the power has spoken !
A other way to look at the situation could be this, what if a religious group proclaimed in one of their doctrines that no medical assistance or endeavor should take place in looking after one
of their followers in case of severe illness and this policy was to cause the unfortunate deaths of some their followers. What do you suppose the government would do if it was found out that
hundreds of people, adults and children were prematurely dying due to this religious practice. Would the government step in and take legal action for putting the health and
welfare of people in jeopardy or would they just shake their heads cross their arms and say well thats just freedom of religion. Personally I think any organization or group that has the
given freedom provided by the government to operate and function should be held responsible for the health and welfare of the people that join and participate with the organization.
If the organizers of the group give out instructions to it's participants that causes personal injury to the people involved, shouldn't the leaders of that group be held libel for their actions ?
Where the matter gets gray is, does a select religious group have more power over and above the government and who should be held responsible if any toward the health and welfare
of the people involved. Since the WTS are using a strong policy of fear and coercion to draw people toward them with the intent to exploit and manipulate as many as possible,
wouldn't be important to watch cults like this. I think the government has the legal right and responsibility to protect the citizens that it governs over and not succumb to the willful desires
of a small group no matter what form those individual desires may be and in this case it's obviously power.
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skeeter1
You are in the perfect situation to save approximately 100 lives. You can explain the blood policy. This is an opportunity of a lifetime. I wish I was allowed to give this talk....
#1) Go through the scripture quotes on abstaining from blood. (do this real quick...they all know it).
#2) Go through an old WT quote on "no blood or blood products." (you can do this real quick too).
#3) Go through the last WT (August 2006?) that said that all blood "fractions" were allowed by personal decision. But that some should be avoided as they are more blood-like than others. Explain that blood fractions are made from donated blood. For example, one dose of Factor VIII is made from 2,500 units of donated blood (there is an old Watchtower/Awake quote on this)!!
#4) Get the pie chart off of www.ajwrb.org that shows that all blood fractions total to a whole unit of blood if they were added together. Go to Kinkos & get it done on a poster board. It will be a great, educational prop.
#5) Get the picture of hemoglobin bag off of www.ajwrb.org . Get it printed on a poster board too.
Explain what hemoglobin is (insides of red blood cells) and transports oxygen to one's body. Explain that it is made from either human or cow blood. State that hemoglobin was not allowed in the 90's, but the Society graceously started allowing it in the early 2000's, and there are many medical articles written by doctors which show it's benefit to Jehovah's Witness patients. But, be sure to mention that it is not available for general use in the US, and to get it...you have to ask the manufacturer...and the manufacturers are very selective about who they give it too. In any event, it is not available in an emergency & you will need the HLC member to help you.
#6) Close with the scriptures on abstaining from blood, obeying Jehovah's earthly organization, and not running ahead of Jehovah.
Alternative #6) Pass out "Jehovah's Witnesses, Blood Transfusions, and the Tort of Misrepresentation" (available at www.ajwrb.org) to the audience members (or run out to put it on their cars after you're run out of the building).
Skeeter
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skeeter1
Below is an article I found & copied a few years back. It gives a good explanation of the Jewish & Muslim interpretation of the blood ban. There are references, too.
Skeeter
A Jewish or Muslim person would find the Jehovah's Witness 1st Samuel argument counterintuitive as both religions have held for hundreds, if not thousands, of years, that blood and eating laws were to be exempted in order to save a life. Judaism has long understood Leviticus 18:5 to mean that those who keep God’s decrees and laws will live by them [not die by them].[1] The Jewish faith strictly exempts people on “the [health] danger list” from compliance with God’s laws necessary to preserve their life or health.[2] This principle can be seen throughout the Jewish religion in: 1) the Talmud’s (oral tradition and judicial decisions, first written down in about 200 AD) allowing sick or pregnant people to violate the dietary laws if necessary to preserve their health or life;[3] 2) exempting the sick from Yom Kippur’s fasting requirements;[4] 3) the Jewish saying “pikkiah nefesh doheh Shabbot – [rescuing a] life in danger takes precedence over the Sabbath”;[5] and 4) the Talmud’s account that King David was permitted to violate the Sabbath’s laws in order to help his ill child.[6]
Islamic interpretation of the Biblical passages against eating blood is similar to Judaism. Many scholars theorize that the Muslim people started in the 22nd century BC when Isaac and Ishmael, Abraham’s sons, parted.[7] In fact, Jehovah’s Witnesses also recognize the common history between Judaism and Islam.[8] Interestingly, the Islamic religion also forbids eating blood[9] but recognizes exceptions to food laws for those unable to comply.[10] Like the Jewish Talmud, the Islamic Sunnah in Chapter 5, verse 4 says that the prohibited food may be eaten in cases of extreme hunger, but if any is forced by hunger with no inclination to transgression, God is indeed oft-forgiving and most merciful.
Thus, both Judaism and Islam permit the breaking of God’s dietary laws to save a life. Is it a coincidence that these two distinct religions, originated by the same ancestor millennia before Christ, would share similar beliefs? In answering the 1 Samuel argument, a Jew or Muslim might state that these soldiers were hungry, not ill or starving-to-death, when they broke the commandment. In either event, Jehovah God was, as Islam says (supra), “most merciful and kind” as none were sanctioned. Since both of these ancient religions contain an “in order to save a life” exception, this is not an argument that originated in modern times.
[1] Leviticus 18:5 (NIV)(“Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them”); see also Tractate Yoma, Chapter VIII Mishna (pregnant women allowed to smell non-kosher meats and even eat unclean meats if not satisfied), and Daniel Eisenburg, M.D., Mandate to Heal: What is the Role of the Physician in Jewish Law?, (stating the Mitzvot principle of living, not dying by Kosher Laws). available at http://www.aish.com/societyWork/work/The_Mandate_to_Heal.asp.
[2] Rabbi Dr. Immanuel Jakobovits, JEWISH MEDICAL ETHICS – A COMPARATIVE AND HISTORICAL STUDY OF THE JEWISH RELIGIOUS ATTITUDE TO MEDICINE AND ITS PRACTICE 45 (Block Publishing Company 1959) (Preservation of human life takes precedence over God’s laws with the exception of idolatry, murder, and incest).
[3] Id. at 88-89. see also Tractate Yoma, Chapter VIII Mishna (pregnant women allowed to smell non-kosher meats and even eat unclean meats if not satisfied).
[4] Daniel Eisenburg, M.D., Mandate to Heal: What is the Role of the Physician in Jewish Law?, available at http://www.aish.com/societyWork/work/The_Mandate_to_Heal.asp.
[5] Daniel Eisenburg, M.D., Mandate to Heal: What is the Role of the Physician in Jewish Law?, available at http://www.aish.com/societyWork/work/The_Mandate_to_Heal.asp.
[6] Rabbi Dr. Immanuel Jakobovits, JEWISH MEDICAL ETHICS – A COMPARATIVE AND HISTORICAL STUDY OF THE JEWISH RELIGIOUS ATTITUDE TO MEDICINE AND ITS PRACTICE 45 (Block Publishing Company 1959) (Preservation of human life takes precedence over God’s laws with the exception of idolatry, murder, and incest).
[7] Genesis 21:13 (NIV) (“I will make the son of the maidservant into a nation also, because he is your offspring”) and Genesis 19:18 (NIV) (“Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.”).
[9] The Holy Quron, S.5 A.3, 278-279, (Printing rights reserved for King Fahd Holy Qur-an Printing Complex) ( “Forbidden to you (for food) Are: dead meat, blood, The flesh of swine, and that On which has been invoked The name of other than Allah, That which hath been Killed by stangling, Or a violent blow, Or by headlong fall, Or being gored to death; That which has been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; Unless you were able to slaughter it (in due form) That which has been sacrificed on stone (alters); (Forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling With arrows; that is impiety.”).
[10]The Holy Quron, (Printing rights reserved for King Fahd Holy Qur-an Printing Complex) (“O ye who believe! Fasting is prescribed to you As it was prescribed To those before you, That ye may (learn) Self-restraint. (Fasting) for a fixed Number of days; But if any of you is ill, Or on a journey, The prescribed number (Should be made up) From days later. For those who can do it.”). -
dust
Educate them on what the Society teaches: what is acceptable and what is not. Education is good, whatsoever. Especially if the details are confusing, and in particular if "most of blood" is OK. Perhaps you want to emphasise that although it is not acceptable to be a blood donor, it is -- luckily -- acceptable to benefit from what others have donated.
And maybe you would like to add that if you live in Bulgaria, then blood transfusion is acceptable alltogether:
http://www.humanrights.coe.int/Bulletin/eng/ib43e.pdf
Also go to http://echr.coe.int/ECHR/ and click "HUDOC", then "Access Hudoc Collection". Check the "HUDOC Collection" box at the left to search the entire base. Enter the search word "28626/95" and click "Search". This is the case number as found in the pdf mentoned above. Two of the hits in the Hudoc search are texts about the blood case. The settlement is written in French. A summary in English is found somewehere in the first-mentioned pdf. -
still_in74
nope, im giving it tonight! (Tues Sept 25-07)
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Rabbit
Hey, 74, I'm glad you're giving the talk. Can you give us a hint about what you'll say ? Skeeter1 gave some great ideas. If you do it carefully, you'll still make some people squirm, but, by backing up what you say with WT quotes...the elders can't say too much.
And thanks everyone...for the kind thoughts about the death of my mom. As painful as it is to dredge all that up...I think it is important for doubting JW's who show up here to read how very real and very dangerous the GB is. A lot of dubs may not ever get a chance to talk to someone who has actual experience with the Blood Doctrine.
I want everyone to know that this is a Real Life & Death issue...not some religious academic argument. And there are sadly...quite a few here on this board, who have lost loved ones over this issue.
I'm sure the 'loving' Governing Body has a form some elders filled out for my mom's "faithful death". The 'loving' GB surely smiles, when they see those form letters, declaring "another one bites the dust" over their sacred words. Its got to be a great ego boost, ya' know ?
However, they evidently have no "Thank You for Believing Us, Even Though it Killed Your (fill in deceased name) !" card. Because, we sure didn't get one.
Rabbit
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carla
It's like this dear brothers and sisters, if the fds told us not to eat pizza would we? Of course not! Does that mean we cannot eat a crisp bread, motzarella cheese, sauce, sausage, pepperoni, onions, and mushrooms at one sitting? Of course we could! Just not all together. Don't let the dirty apostates start to tickle your ears with what we can and cannot do. It is clear as day we do not take blood, in it's complete form. That would against the fds, err, I mean jahs word. You can however take apart blood in all its miraculous glory and take each tiny fraction bit by bit.
(my apologies for smartassness to all those who have lost loved ones, I mean no disrepect. My deepest sympathies)
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Rabbit
Carla, no offence taken. Your illustration perfectly describes the hypocrisy & stupidity of the GB's commandments. I'm gonna use that when I can with some of my dub relatives.
Thank you for that good idea,
Rabbit