"In all the congregations let the women keep silent."

by senoj53 40 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  JosephMalik

  Journey-on,

  Sure, and no need to feel bad. I had the same problem with Paul for many years. When it all finally cleared up it turned out to be nothing more than a problem with punctuation and style. And notable scholars get it wrong as do most denominations. Strange since it is only necessary to read it more carefully. Translators did not help either and make it look bad for Paul. But when I saw that even James the main instigator of this theology wanted Paul to take Nazarite vows to prove he still kept the Law and that Christian Jews that supported James tried to kill Paul, the light started to go on. Then it all made sense. Takes a little time and effort.

  Joseph

  P.S. You know that Jesus did something much like Paul did when he used the Samaritan woman to preach the good news which the apostles would have not approved of. This should have been enough of a lesson for them but they and the Jews still did not get it. So the problem went on for over 40 years and in many congregations today is still going on. No wonder He had use Paul instead of one of His own disciples to replace Judas. The apostles failed Him on this one and it took Paul to correct Peter, John and James who finally got the message after several tries.

  JM
• 

  yknot

  I always loved this rule and 1Tim 2 (well in theory of exclusion of FS). This is why the Mormon only use men when doing public preaching. Can you imagine how many WT and Awakes would be sitting in the KH collecting dust! Membership would come to a halt, after all most new male studies are initiated by women and then passed to a Brother.

  I think I will call WTBS and suggest it as a KM piece!
• 

  snowbird

  But when I saw that even James the main instigator of this theology wanted Paul to take Nazarite vows to prove he still kept the Law and that Christian Jews that supported James tried to kill Paul, the light started to go on. Then it all made sense. Takes a little time and effort.

  Yes, it does take time and effort. Do you think James' dislike of Paul stemmed from the fact that Jesus selected Paul while ignoring James, His own brother?

  Sylvia
• 

  Narkissos

  JM,

  Did anybody get a chance to understand the Bible texts correctly before you came up?

  That's admittedly an ironical question and at the same time a serious one.

  One of the axioms of communication is that no locutor/writer deliberately looks for misunderstanding. In that particular case, any author would make sure that the sentences of his adversaries (real or fictitious) are not misunderstood as his own. And in the absence of markers like quotation marks, this will be apparent in the text.

  This is an example of how Paul himself introduces adverse viewpoints and dismisses them explicitly:

  What if some were unfaithful? Will their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Although everyone is a liar, let God be proved true, as it is written,
  "So that you may be justified in your words,
  and prevail in your judging."
  But if our injustice serves to confirm the justice of God, what should we say? That God is unjust to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.)
  By no means! For then how could God judge the world? But if through my falsehood God's truthfulness abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), "Let us do evil so that good may come"?Their condemnation is deserved!

  So if Paul actually referred to adverse viewpoints in 1 Corinthians in a way that only you and handful of interpreters could discern, all other readers since the first generation understanding them as his own stance, he was in a very very bad day...
• 

  JosephMalik

  Did anybody get a chance to understand the Bible texts correctly before you came up?

  That's admittedly an ironical question and at the same time a serious one.

  Narkissos,

  Too bad you feel that way but it gave me a good laugh. I am sure they did but the Catholic church and other mainstream denomination controlled much of what we are taught today. Many are still purging their teachngs as we write. You can say the same thing about the Trinity and why are so many still teaching it? James wrote his letter of apology such as it was for such a proud man so he finally got it. We can say that he figured it out before I did.

  Joseph
• 

  JosephMalik

  Do you think James' dislike of Paul stemmed from the fact that Jesus selected Paul while ignoring James, His own brother?

  Sylvia,

  Both men had a lot of power. Paul could heal, raise the dead, had support in Antioch and other places and saw Jesus miraculously. James had genealogy (very important to Jews) and thousands of Christian Jews on his side. Fighters willing to die or kill Paul over the law. It could have been a power struggle for leadership. But it all revolved around keeping the law, often simply called circumcision. The letter James wrote to the Gentiles still included works of law so he still was keeping his toe in the door on this one. But the letter was subtle and Paul's did not see its hypocrisy until years later when the problem still persisted with James and the Jews. Acts 21:25. Therefore we can see why Jesus did not pick James or any of his brothers since they all went with James.

  Joseph
• 

  Narkissos

  Too bad you feel that way but it gave me a good laugh.

  I'm glad it did. Really.

  I am sure they did but the Catholic church and other mainstream denomination controlled much of what we are taught today. Many are still purging their teachngs as we write. You can say the same thing about the Trinity and why are so many still teaching it?

  We are not speaking about doctrine like the Trinity, but about the plain reading of NT texts. My point is that nobody could ever understand them as you do unless they were materially different, including some "quotations markers" (i.e., entire clauses, cf. my above illustration from Romans 3) that were later dropped in the process of transmission -- a possibility which a Christian, who held an interpretation similar to yours, eventually accepted if I remember correctly. Do you?

  James wrote his letter of apology such as it was for such a proud man so he finally got it. We can say that he figured it out before I did.

  This has hardly anything to do with the Pauline and post-Pauline stances on women, to which the "epistle of James" never alludes. Moreover, it's a rather strange "apology" which formally contradicts Paul's teaching in Romans for instance. (N.B. I don't believe the "epistle of James" to be actually a work of James the adversary of Paul, but that's still another issue.)
• 

  snowbird

  Therefore we can see why Jesus did not pick James or any of his brothers since they all went with James.

  Joseph

  Thank you for that, kind sir. It always saddens me to read Chapter 7 of John where His brothers treated Our Lord so contemptuously. His selection of Paul was a sort of rebuke to His brothers, you think?

  Sylvia
• 

  changeling

  changeling sticks her finger down her throat and gags.
• 

  JosephMalik

  His selection of Paul was a sort of rebuke to His brothers, you think?

  Sylvia,

  They selected Matthias presumptuously. Luke made this clear as he pointed out such problems in the faith that others ignored. After all he did this on Paul's behalf because of all the problems that resulted from it and Luke supported Paul at the time. Luke made all the problems with the Jerusalem congregation, the letter to the Gentiles and Paul's battle with them into a historical record. Galatians also contains some of the story and proves this point. But our Lord would not correct matters immediately. He gave them and the faith time to grow. They should have known that only Christ can choose an apostle. He made this clear to them but they did not pay attention. Notice: Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. Now when a suitable candidate became available, one that would make the necessary impression on them all our Lord acted. I never thought of it in terms like rebuke. But it does show that Jesus was in charge or this new found faith and not the apostles. Thus Paul became the 12th apostle that our Lord selected and Paul gave a remarkable account of how he was grafted in historically. But many still argue about who was who today just like they do on many other matters. It depends on each of us to do your own study and determine the truth for ourselves.

  Joseph