Did Jesus rise from the dead with 1.His physical body (or) 2. As a spirit

by jesusisgod 35 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    " 46 Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual." See that? FIRST is the physical, and THEN is the spiritual. Two phases to the resurrection.

    JCanon,

    Just a simple fact. It has nothing to do with phases. What you are not seeing is the doctrine behind this response or in this case the letter to which Paul is responding. He had to tackle some astrological views that were offered to him and refute them. You can tell this by the words he used which point to this exact place in their letter that contains such views and by the way he has handled their material thus far. There is no other reason to say things like: 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

    You may have heard things like we become a star when we pass away or are otherwise involved with such celestial bodies personally. This was going on then just as it still is today. So Paul had to deflect such views and point in a different direction by absorbing their words and saying: 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

    Now the word spiritual can mean nearly anything like the promise of or a resurrection by God, but in this case as an immoral and incorrupt not a mortal or corrupt human being. This new reality called spiritual would be patterned after the body Christ had when he returns which we know is an immortal human one.

    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    This image will still be human (ADAM) as proven here but immortal. A quickening spirit or life giving spirit is simply a functional term or description of the last human (ADAM) doing it not some proof of nature since we know that the nature of this Adam will be human not astrologically based when he returns. Christ will leave what here is called heaven in order to do this. As long as we once lived and qualified to be raised we will now bear the immortal human image of the one having authority to make us so, the heavenly one which is what heavenly means really.

    Everyone seems to insist on reading magical things into texts that are simply down to earth and humanly recognizable but are being given to people who’s minds were still filled with astrological assumptions that had to be taken out.

    Joseph

  • Bonnie_Clyde
    Bonnie_Clyde
    Where in the Bioble does it teach that Jesus rose from the dead as a spirit being?

    1 Peter 3:18: "Even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, as being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit."

    I haven't seen any comments yet on my earlier post about Jesus being on the road to Emmaus (after his resurrection), and the disciples did not recognize him.

  • jesusisgod
    jesusisgod

    Bonnie,

    Good question, why wasnt Jesus recognized? I heard similiar things that one was so upset that they hadn't recognized him, another is Jesus had his hood or head covering on, or it could be that as the resurrected Christ his once mortal body had now become a new glorified body, though it was the same body it was and is glorified imperishable (same body because of the nail scared hands and feet and side pierced). This is the hope of all Christians because Christ was the firstborn from the dead, so all believers who have gone to be with the Lord will receive back to themselves their resurrected bodies but glorified immortal. This point is plain in scripture though there are some who would distort this. We can only speculate on some matters like what he really looked like in his glorified body risen. What can we derive from scriptures.

    First I establshed that Jesus did rise from the dead in his physical body that had died,

    Jesus said he would raise himself from the dead, "this (body) temple" singular John 2:19. If he materialized another body to show them, then "Destroy this temple" becomes a false statement by Jesus. God cannot lie.

    That his disciples touched and saw him, he ate to show them he wasnt a spirit. The knew Jesus had died and when they first saw him they thought they were seeing a ghost because he had died. But what a glorious shocker to them that he had risen bodily. This is what lead the once scared followers to now boldly proclaim the risen Lord. They went from dispare to victory seeing the risen Lord. "Behold my hands and my feet, it is I Myself. Handle me and see for a spirit doesnt have flesh and bones as you see I have (Luke 24:39).

    Then John 20:25-29 Thomas reaches into the nail scared hands and pierced side, touch and see, stop your unbelieving

    Mary held him, etc, etc.

    Please read Luke 24:39, John 2:19

    Second Other people did recognize him

    Matthew 28:9, 17 Some of the disciples knew whom Jesus was and worshipped him.

    Robin

  • jesusisgod
    jesusisgod

    Bonnie,

    Being made alive in the spirit is different then being made alive as a spirit. These are completely different ideas.

    Romans 1:4 "and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord"

    This is the Holy Spirit and he had played a part in the resurrection.

    Romans 8:11 "If the Spirit (Holy Spirit) of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through the Spirit who dwells in you."

    The Holy Spirit raised up Jesus from the dead.

    Robin

  • Bonnie_Clyde
    Bonnie_Clyde
    Being made alive in the spirit is different then being made alive as a spirit. These are completely different ideas.

    I've thought of that too.

    Regarding Matt 28, the disciples who recognized Jesus, versus Luke 24, the disciples who did not recognize Jesus: The WT spin is that Jesus was a spirit and could materialize any body he chose--that included a body that showed Thomas his wounds. They compare it with the angels in Lot's day who materialized the bodies of men.

    This is almost as difficult as the Trinity. I used to KNOW the truth and would argue what I knew to be the truth. Now that I look at things from different angles, it's confusing. It's like Pilate asked Jesus, "What is truth?" In the WT world, the truth is whatever they are teaching next Sunday.

  • jesusisgod
    jesusisgod

    Bonnie,

    I just thought of another thing. The spirit of a person doesn't die. Man cannot kill the spirit. Remember "do not fear him who cannot kiil the body, but fear him (God) who can kill the body and throw both soul and body in hell."

    When Jesus said, "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again." John 2:19 He was talking about His physical tangible body. Only man could kill the body, not the spirit. So the only conclusion is Jesus rose his actual body.

    Dont let grey areas that were not sure of cloud our thinking of the solid areas like this one.

    Robin

  • MadTiger
    MadTiger

    Do NOT confuse his resurrection with his ascension, 40 days later.

    Resurrection - physical body

    Ascension - spirit

  • Sad emo
    Sad emo

    I believe his physical body was raised, but it was also changed ('in the twinkling of an eye' if you like).

    He had passed beyond his time-bound mortal existence back into eternity and so was free to appear wherever, whenever and to whoever he liked. This, imho fits in with the theory that the 'angel of the LORD' who appeared in OT times and was able to come and go as he wished, may have been the Son.

    Don't confuse what I say with materalising, this is different - if we believe that Jesus is fully God (God is spirit) and fully man, He should be able to manifest himself as both at the same time. Maybe a very crude way of putting what I was trying to say in my original sentence is that Jesus' resurrection body now revealed more of God than of man?

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    He should be able to manifest himself as both at the same time.

    Sad emo,

    This is just a guess not a truth. That Jesus can appear in either form is all that we can say for sure. And I am not even sure if this situation will be permanent or only last for the symbolic 1000 years. We can not even say that his human body no longer exists somewhere so that it can be used again. So I take it as far as I can and leave it at that. Not a bad post and it shows that many are out their trying to think things through.

    Being made alive in the spirit is different then being made alive as a spirit. These are completely different ideas.

    JesusisGod,

    This is true and that is why I use another scripture to make this point. Because of what I was taught, I had it wrong for a long time myself. When I studied first Peter I realized that he was preparing his readers for the last part of his letter where some problems regarding our hope and conduct would be addressed. If we read it carefully Peter makes multiple references to the resurrection in the first few chapters to emphasize the importance and reality of it. Why our hope is real and such things. The fact that the resurrection took place, the fact that it was real is what he was driving home. So this verse about being raised in the spirit simply harmonizes with the rest of similar comments grouped together to emphasize this reality and fulfillment of prophecy so Peter is not talking about the nature of the one so raised. Jesus is Jesus and they only knew him as a human. Therefore we see things like this intended so stop bad conduct later: 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

    Joseph

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    jesusisgod

    Dont let grey areas that were not sure of cloud our thinking of the solid areas like this one.

    This remark is typical of what the process of doctrinal synthesis from divergent texts require. A group of texts (in the present case, those which emphasise bodily resurrection) are singled out as "solid" or "clear," and the others as "gray" or "difficult". The first group is used as prooftexts for the dogma, and the latter group is to be explained away through more or less farfetched exegesis.

    What you put in either box is ultimately a matter of choice.

    MadTiger

    Do NOT confuse his resurrection with his ascension, 40 days later.

    Resurrection - physical body

    Ascension - spirit

    Please note that the scheme Resurrection / Ascension / Pentecost which most Christian catechisms take for granted is unique to Luke/Acts in the NT.

    This is an original (and historically successful) way of harmonising, as distinct and successive events, two concurrential understandings of salvation post mortem in 1st-century Judaism (and Christianity): eitherresurrection of the whole person, including the "body," in the last judgement (the classical Pharisaic doctrine, which can be traced back to Maccabees and Daniel) or instant elevation of the soul/spirit to God (the most popular Hellenistic doctrine, apparent in Wisdom of Solomon for instance). Both motifs lie in the background of NT texts about Jesus, but their combination as two successive events (the bodily resurrection implying the oddity of a bodily ascension) with an interval of 40 days is particular to "Luke".

    JosephMalik

    Good remarks about the context in 1 Peter -- we rarely agree, so that may be worth noting.

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