First let me say that I'm at a point in my life where I don't even buy the idea that the Bible is Gods word. This is just a thought exercise. Second, since there are so many smart folks on this board, this has possibly already been discussed. (As I'm typing, I'm thinking that it sounds like a subject that Terry might bring up. Thats a complement Terry; you're a deep thinker.) Okay, here goes: JW's(and other fundies)believe that a Supreme Being created the angels(including Satan) then for an undisclosed amount of time part of the universe and somewhere along the line...humans. Science and common sense dictate that there had to be a long time in between the angels creation and that of humans. (Perhaps millenia,it would have taken a long time for the Earth itself to be ready for human habitation) So,God(s) allows Satan, a vastly superior in every way being (a being who,as noted above had thousands of years or more knowledge and experience) to test his new creation (who were comparatively,infants)and of course,they fail. Now....fast forward to now. We,thanks to original sin,are now inferior to Adam,yet we're supposed to face that same vastly superior in every way adversary and his cohorts? That's impossible! At this point the JW's would say "Yes,but we have Jehovah's Spirit to help us." Okay, then this trial is rigged and proves nothing. Remember, Satans challenge was that humans could get along fine without God. He also challenged God to remove the "hedge", or protection, from Job and see if he(and by extension,you could say us) would then turn away from God. So if God is helping us,Satans challenge goes unanswered. If God doesn't help us,we are in a no-win situation. It seems to me that the only way to settle it fairly would be to lock up Satan and the Demons now,so they can't interfere,then give humans a specific length of time to govern their own affairs. What do you guys (and gals) think?
The Universal court case is rigged.........or unwinnable.
by Iron Rod 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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WTWizard
In fact, it is a kangaroo court. God doesn't want anyone to think, plain and simple. Anyone who thinks will soon realize that sacrificing to God is a total waste and will not do it anymore. And they will learn commerce, putting them in the vile company of the Canaanites and the ancient Greeks, who were condemned merely for being well off.
Notably, if God expects us to do something that is impossible, it is a no-win situation for us. If He helps us, anyone can later claim that we wouldn't have done it had He refused to help. If He doesn't help, obviously we will not succeed. Also, not providing the opportunity to go all the way forces us to prove the issue further and further away from the actual issue. Take fornication: Not getting the opportunity to do it, the battle zone gets moved against us. Now, acts toward fornication count as if you did the act itself, since you could not have gone all the way. Take that away, and the frontier moves even further back. In the extreme case, just having the natural desire that all humans were made with becomes the disfellowship/die cutoff since anything beyond that point is inaccessible.
At this point, if you even have a single thought of it and not getting sick at the same time, you have as good as done the act. How the fxxx can THAT possibly prove anything?? Is Jehovah actually out to stop humans from functioning normally? No more can that prove anything than can it prove anything if man is not helped to do the impossible, than he will fail. This whole Universal Court is better known as the Universal Kangaroo Court.
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Shawn10538
Very good points. I have never thought of that. Thanks for giving us more ammo. Be careful, this type of intelligent thinking will get you in trouble.
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Shawn10538
Very good points. I have never thought of that. Thanks for giving us more ammo. Be careful, this type of intelligent thinking will get you in trouble.
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tula
Don't you even find it to be a repulsive joke that you are a pawn in someone's bet?
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Narkissos
First remark: this topic addresses the WT dogma rather than the Bible. I don't know of many Christian denominations besides JWs that stretch the prologue of Job to make it the revelation of the hidden plot line in universal history.
That being said, such a scenario, transposed on a universal and eternal scene, with Satan becoming God's enemy in lieu of one of his servants, raises considerable logical problems indeed.
For instance: if disinterested loyalty is at stake (as the prologue implies), only loyalty to Satan would match the standard. Loyalty to "Jehovah" is nothing more than siding with the expected winner who will provide eternal reward, thereby making "Satan"'s point.
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Dagney
Loyalty to "Jehovah" is nothing more than siding with the expected winner who will provide eternal reward, thereby making "Satan"'s point.
Yep.
There is no "universal court" or issue. (IMHO) If there were, really, would puny humans really have any impact? Does "God" need to prove anything or does he need anybody to validate him or his right?
I mean really...
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M.J.
Wow great point Nark! I hadn't thought of it that way before.
More specifically, in the way they interpret Job, Job himself didn't answer "the challenge" if he had it in mind that a "greater" reward awaited him if he persevered. -
Narkissos
MJ:
Right: the Prologue narratively functions because the reader/hearer knows the deal and understands that Job doesn't.
But the intended application by the reader to him/herself is modified (and, to an extent, thwarted) inasmuch as s/he is supposed to know both the heavenly plot and the happy ending (assuming that the epilogue belongs with the prologue).
A similar paradox is found in the rhetorics of Matthew 25 (sheep and goats) where it is essential that the characters did not know that they were actually dealing with "the King," yet the reader/hearer knows...
A fascinating dialectics of ignorance and knowledge in upbuilding storytelling (esp. haggadic midrash).
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Iron Rod
Thanks for the great responses everyone! I knew there would be some good ones.
Now, heres something else closely related to consider: Why should there even be a universal court case to start with? Think about it.....Satan,Adam and Eve were supposedly perfect,so when they sinned they should have been executed immediately(since that is supposedly Gods standard...."soul that is sinning,etc...)
Of course the JW answer is "Well, God couldn't do that.The angels were watching. They might have wondered whether or not Satan was right." Wait a minute...angels? Beings who, as I said before,are superior in every way to us? Beings who shared a close relationship with God for perhaps millenia? Beings who knew better than we ever could that God is "a God of justice,in whom there is no injustice"..? They would have doubted the rightfulness of Gods judgement in destroying the rebels? Does that seem reasonable? In fact, it seems to me that possibly the reason that one-third of the angels defected ( as the story goes)was because they obsered that what Satan said in Eden came true.
Not to put too fine a point on it,but....We inferior little "grasshoppers" were consigned to suffer,toil and die just to avoid the possibility that some of the angels might have had doubts? Is that sick or is is it just me?