Resurrection soon after armageddon or 1000 years after it?

by greendawn 45 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Brother Apostate
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  Brother Apostate

  Journey-On,

  It is great to “see” you as well!!

  Being taught by God rather than men is a blessing only attainable by putting faith ih Him and His Holy Sprit, and then when one reads His Word, you are taught by Him. It is sad to see how men twist scripture based on their own understanding.
  May the light get brighter for all who put faith in Him and His Holy Spirit!

  BA- Praise God!
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  Doug Mason

  Does it really matter?
  
  Doug
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  Brother Apostate

  Does it really matter?
  
  Doug

  NO, It is NOT necessary to understand this matter to have SALVATION. Just clarifying meaning, for the sake of accuracy. BA- Cheers
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  heathen

  The WTBTS adds to it with lots of dogma . Where does it say people are resurrected during the millenia ? It does kinda say that the 144k get their thrones during it but as for the WTBTS dogma that states people are resurrected in an imperfect state and need to study for a thousand years before they are saved is absurd. It is clear that whoever tampers with the scroll will be cursed , so explains alot as far as the WTBTS is concerned .
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  JCanon

  Greendawn: Can anyone explain why the WTS claims that faithful dubs will be resurrected soon after Armageddon when to the contrary the book of Revelation plainly states that the resurrection of anyone other than the saints will occur after 1000 years?

  Greendawn,

  MALIK: Plainly for who? The book describes a series of visions that take place in parallel mostly during the 1000 years. And there were no punctuation marks or explanations to separate these visions.

  Greendawn, you are amazing to see this. You are absolutely correct! NOBODY gets resurrected during the 1000 years. Nobody. And the 1st resurrection takes place before the 1000 years.

  Joseph Malik claims there is no "punctuation marks or explanations to separate these visions" but we're talking about a sequence of events in one chapter in the Bible, and to the contrary there is definitive "punctuation" that separates the millennium and Satan's last stand from JUDGMENT DAY. The best way to deal with this is to show everybody by quoting the few verses involved.

  REV 20: 1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After these things he must be let loose for a little while.

  4 And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.

  7 Now as soon as the thousand years have been ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison, 8 and he will go out to mislead those nations in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Ma´gog, to gather them together for the war. The number of these is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they advanced over the breadth of the earth and encircled the camp of the holy ones and the beloved city. But fire came down out of heaven and devoured them. 10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

  11 And I saw a great white throne and the one seated on it. From before him the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha´des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and Ha´des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.

  Now you see the clear order of events here. Joseph would have us believe that because separate visions previously might be considered as occurring simultaneously or parallel that this goes for this single vision here found in 15 verses. But is that the case? No. And we know that because of the special language used to introduce the time of judging: "From before him the earth and the heaven fled away."

  And what does this mean? Does the literal heaven and earth disappear? How is that possible? Thus this is an allegorical reference to something else. What? The harmony of the heavens and earth are synonymous with the "system of things", that is the current overall state of affairs. It is called "heaven and earth." It's a concept of the order of things, the rules and situations that are in place for a given time. Thus when the disciples were asking Jesus about the "end of the system of things" it was in reference to the time of the gentiles, the "appointed times of the nations." That is what they were focussed on, when they would be able to be restored to their homeland. Even the witnesses and others consider the "end of the system of things" to be this present system of things, that is a world ruled by man and Satan. Thus when the millennium begins a new system of things is thought to replace the old. It is as if the old system of things had fled away. That is what is being expressed here. The time when Satan tests mankind, the time when Satan is alive, is part of one system of things. Now that he is destroyed, it's a "whole new world"! There's a new "system of things" now in place, a new heavens and earth! "From before him the earth and heaven fled away" is thus a reference to the old heaven and earth ending, the old system of things with Satan present passing away.

  But because this phrase is used after Satan is destroyed, clearly the beginning of a "new day" and new circumstance, it has to refer to whatever was mentioned just previously. So this statement thus clearly places everything before that statement as part of the old heavens and earth, and thus what comes after is being introduced as a brand new situation. That brand new "heavens and earth" situation is JUDGMENT DAY. The time when everybody comes back from the dead and gets judged.

  Another point of contradiction for Malik and the witnesses here. They think these people will come back and have a chance to thoroughly know the "truth" and then have a second, now "informed choice" about whether to serve God or not. NADA! Revelation clearly shows that "books are opened" and they are judged from those books. Those books are what they did in their previous life, whether they knew the details of God or not. The righteous judges will be able to distinguish between those who say are trying to be good, following their own god-given conscience or whether they are deliberately opposed. That's why the Bible says that even those from Sodom and Gomorrah would do better than those in Jesus' day on JUDGMENT DAY, since there are extenuating circumstances for many in Sodom. Maybe some were influenced from the youth by this culture, peer pressure and all that. But those in Jesus' day knew what was going on, they knew Jesus was the messiah and still rejected him because they wanted their own rulership. Or we have the example of the Queen of the South who came to admire Solomon. She saw something great and admired it, yet she wasn't Jewish, etc. So based upon what people already have done during their lives will determine if they get life or not.

  Further, please note that many are already written in the book of life! That is, those who did good during their lives and tried to live a good life were considered "righteous" and were already written in the book of life. Technically they've already been judged. Plus the Bible also says that some from Jesus' time who rejected them are already assigned to Gehenna, yet they will come back in the resurrection as well. Technically they have already been judged. But everyone is not in that already absolutely judged category. Thus some from Sodom will do better than some of Jesus' day since it might be that some of them, perhaps considered overly influenced by their culture may be considered righteous. Maybe they hated what was going on even though they were still destroyed, etc. It will be on an individual basis. So ALL of this argues against any need for anyone to be brought back during the millennium for any kind of a "second chance."

  Now think how ridiculous that is! Right now, if a person dies before Armageddon per the witnesses, they automatically will be brought back to life to live in the New Order and will be taught the scriptures and THEN if they like it, they will get a chance at everlasting life. That means the only thing you need to do for a "second chance" is to die before Armageddon. Every axe murderer or criminal will thus be forgiven for all they have done. Likewise, what was the benefit of anybody being good during their lives if it would all be wiped out anyway? No. That's not how God does things. And the WTS hems and haws around the scriptures that say quite clearly those people who crossed that line during their lives are already condemned to Gehenna. One article I remember suggested that maybe because of their extensive sinning those bad habits would be impossible to break and they'd end up condemned in some way by that previous behavior. C'mon!

  No. Instead, as the Bible clearly shows, when they are resurrected the books of their lives are opened up and they are judged out of those books that were already recorded. Those who are righteous will get life. Those who are proven to be unrighteous will get Gehenna, the "second death."

  So, THANK YOU for actually reading the Bible and seeing quite clearly on this. The Bible outlines this period quite well, showing us what will happen when. There is a first and second resurrection and the second does not take place until after the 1000 years just as the Bible says. No fancy footwork to make this happen during the millennium.

  Besides, there's another reason that view doesn't work. The period of those coming back from the dead results in their getting life, eternal life. Yet if that's the case, are we to presume some will get life before the final test by Satan? Does that make sense? NO. Instead, all those who are alive during the millennium, those who survive Armageddon and their children are the ones, who learn the truth thoroughly and know God's laws completely who will then be tested by Satan. Then after Satan is destroyed, those who are faithful, called the "great and the small" are first granted eternal life. That is, they receive their favorable judgment first. Then the second resurrection of the dead takes place and they are judged; everybody comes back, both the "righteous and the unrighteous" and that includes the "wicked." They are judged during this time. Likely a period of at least 80 years.

  Finally note what happens after Judgment Day is over? A "new day" begins... The very next verse at Rev. 21:1 again introduces a new "era", a new system of things. Judgment Day is thus over...

  1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and theformer earth had passed away..

  See that? See how many heavens and earths are passing away? It's not the literal heavens and earth, but just the change of venue and policy and the order of things. This verse simply notes a new era now begins and the former "world" that was set up as JUDGMENT DAY has now ended. There is no need now for judging any more. The court adjourns. This is the time when the judges who are on the earth, become spirit beings. Their judging is over and now they get to go to heaven to be with Christ, and now God can come to dwell with righteous mankind.

  Thus the "former heaven and the former earth" that had passed away in this reference is the system of things of Judgment Day. See? This phrase not only separates these distinct periods, but also forces a strict chronological order. So Joseph Malik nor anyone else can compare these set of circumstnces to the various visions that might have parallel fulfillment, since this extra phrasing forces a strict chronological order and one which makes perfect sense. The WTS, however, who thinks the second resurrection actually takes place during the millennium, have to come up with one excuse after the other for all the scriptures that show us otherwise, and so does Joseph. So hold on to the obvious truth! You are definitely reading Revelation correctly: There is no resurrection at all during the millennium!

  JCanon
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  JCanon

  2)- Those who physically survive the Great Tribulation & Armageddon (and those born to them during the thousand years.).

  BrotherApostate,

  Those that survive the Great Tribulation is nearly everyone that ever lived since Adam that qualifies. We also see them symbolized as the Nations. The tribulation started then and is not just the few years just prior to Armageddon as some teach. And there will be no marriage or children born as the WT teaches. No verses for this shown but it can be refuted easily..

  Joseph

  Brother Apostate and Joseph, I agree with Brother Apostate that those who survive Armageddon into the millennium will also have children. That's because of the scriptures that depict children during this idyllic time such as Isa. 11:

  6 And the wolf will actually reside for a while with the male lamb, and with the kid the leopard itself will lie down, and the calf and the maned young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a mere little boy will be leader over them. 7 And the cow and the bear themselves will feed; together their young ones will lie down. And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull. 8 And the sucking child will certainly play upon the hole of the cobra; and upon the light aperture of a poisonous snake will a weaned child actually put his own hand. 9 They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea.

  This is the ideal time of the millennium. When Christ will rule and everybody will have knowledge of Jehovah! Obviously there are children here. But after everyone gets eternal life, the population growth will be zero, because no one will die. If people keep having children then the poopulation would eventually get too large for the earth. No one is dying. Further, if DEATH IS NO MORE, then new children would not have been proven righteous yet, so death would still be a possibility, right? Also the Bible says that those who are resurrected in the general resurrection would not marry or be given into marriage! That suggests there will be no children either in connection with the second resurrection. So these points argue against children during the time of Judgment Day. But clearly they can be a part of the millennium. As it stands, one third of the population will likely be destroyed at Armageddon, Another third will survive to live out their life into old age. This might be many witnesses who are not paying attention and end up following the WTS, but are not bad people. They fall into the "Moses" class where Moses due to an indescretion, didn't get to cross over into the Promised Land, but only got a look. So some people are not hard-core bent on ruling this world, but should have been more responsive to what the Bible says, etc. They may have other issues, but are not violent or opposed to the kingdom. Those will likely get eternal life when they come back in the resurrection. Those will die out after their normal lifespan, thus like Moses, only getting a glimpse of the millennium and what it will be like. Then a special one-third of today's population, those ready to create a new way of life focussed on doing God's will and learning his purposes, those of noble heart, will be chosen to begin the righteous new world under the millennium. And some of those will bring forth children as well, thus the idyllic scene of a child playing with poisonous snakes and Lions will be fulfilled. The MILLENNIUM is an experiment! It is to see what happens under a righteous rulership and one religion and without the influence of Adamic sin. How will someone who knows God's laws completely will make a decision when Satan temps them with a chance at more than they have under that system under Christ. Turns out many will want more, but its different for them because they know God's laws and have no excuse. It's an absolute rebellion and refusal to acknowledge God's sovereignty, just as one-third of the angels did when they followed Satan. Definitely will be children. JCanon
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  JosephMalik

  Joseph Malik claims there is no "punctuation marks or explanations to separate these visions" but we're talking about a sequence of events in one chapter in the Bible, and to the contrary there is definitive "punctuation" that separates the millennium and Satan's last stand from JUDGMENT DAY. The best way to deal with this is to show everybody by quoting the few verses involved.

  JC,

  One chapter of what Bible you say?. The Bible has no chapters. The Chapters and verses we have today were added. And because of such chapter and verse divisions many errors resulted like this one. Just like the tribulation. It is explained in scripture but no one notices. They believe the WT like trash heaped upon them by others. Just like the story of the blind leading the blind.

  Joseph
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  JCanon

  One chapter of what Bible you say?. The Bible has no chapters. The Chapters and verses we have today were added. And because of such chapter and verse divisions many errors resulted like this one. Just like the tribulation. It is explained in scripture but no one notices. They believe the WT like trash heaped upon them by others. Just like the story of the blind leading the blind.

  Joseph

  Joseph, you are right. There are no "chapters", a poor choice. I had in mind that in the other visions, several things occur over several versus related to that one event. But here it's just 15 verses. Still, your point is well taken.

  Any comment on how "heaven and earth" pass away right after Satan is destroyed and a "new heavens and new earth" occur again after the description of the second resurrection is over? Seems to me one "era" is being rushed out as another replaces it. If so, at least these verses are in chronological order. Anyway, I'm sure we'll agree to disagree on this as on many other things. Thanks for discussing this topic though. Interesting someone else brought it up.

  JCanon
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  Sarah Smiles

  Can anyone explain why the WTS claims that faithful dubs will be resurrected soon after Armageddon when to the contrary the book of Revelation plainly states that the resurrection of anyone other than the saints will occur after 1000 years?
  
  That is 1000 years after the saints begin ruling on earth which will occur at or shortly before Armageddon. Let's remember that rightly or wrongly most dubs do not believe that they are in the class of the saints or anointed as they call them.

  I can not explain why the WTBTS make their claim to the first resurrection are the 144,000. I think they put Revelation 19:14 "The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine lined, white and clean." with Rev 19:7 "Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory for the wedding of the lamb has come and his bride(144,000) has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean was given her to wear. with Revelation 20:4 "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. (No proof that this is just the 144,00) And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God." They had not worshiped the beast of his image and had not received his mark on their forehead or their hand. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

  I do not read that the 144,000 are given authority to judge! Jesus told his apostles that they would be given thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Also, the souls who were beheaded for their testimony about Jesus were part of the first resurrected! who will not worry about a second death. Where are they resurrected? I believe this is an earthly seen and not heavenly! and they will not have to worry about the second death. They are actually setting up nations for God. Just like the book of Ezekiel around 40.

  I think the Jehovah's Witnesses think their 144,000 and are given the thrones to judge and they will be in heaven to do this judgment. during the first resurrection. That does not make sense to me!

  Your question is not about the first resurrection! smile! Your is about Revelation 20:5 the bible I have in front of me states " (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) but during the thousand years is the first resurrection only!

  Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corner of the earth Gog of Magog. 9 says they marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp! the city he loves.

  What camp and where? I believe this ties in with the earthly Jerusalem from the end of Ezekiel. It really is not a spiritual Israelite class like WTBTS teaches! When the thousand years is over the second resurrection, in Revelation 21:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it ...standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

  I believe the JDUBS says that these dead are not alive! they are still in the grave! being judged! Anyhow that is how someone explained it to me. After all why would Jehovah resurrect people just to kill them again! Why would Jesus and Jehovah resurrected people who all are saved for the salvation of Christ! a big myth!

  According to the WTBTS the first resurrection is for the living 144,000 who go to heaven, and the second one is for the dead to be judged for the deeds they did such as Did you except the WTBTS as your faithful slave class from the pen of the man with the secretary inkhorn (just a joke but true.) They really do think they are judging people to rightouesness or off to jugement with Jesus which is the second death! err!

  I do not believe that one! I think that in the second resurrection the dead will be alive standing before Jesus to be judged to life according to Revelation 20:5 or second death, lake of fire. Unlike the first resurrection saints who were beheaded or gave the testimony of Christ ( :-) and the ones who are to seat on the thrones 12 tribes who was given authority to judge the Iseralites.

  I think that Rutherford and Russell knew that the first resurrected were the once who were going to wake to rewards like Daniel, spiritual class not a real Israelite class. and the second are for the ones who will receive a second death. earthly class.

  The question you should really ask if you were raised as a JDUB is which resurrection do you belong? I think that people who wash there robes in the blood of Christ are part of the continuing group of the saints and number of 144,000 and the great crowd part of the testimony of Christ and will be wake to rewards! But only the 12 Jesus promised to be judges sitting on the thrones all still very much an earthly prophecy! And we are not in the thousand year reign yet. LOL