Resurrection soon after armageddon or 1000 years after it?

by greendawn 45 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate

    Joseph,

    You are mislead. Your attempt to re-order what is stated plainly smacks of haughty teachings of men, not God. What the chapter (Rev 20) plainly reveals is the order in which these things take place.

    Let’s examine it piece by piece:

    7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison

    Note the "and" in verse 8:

    8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

    Continuing the narrative, "They"in verse 9:

    9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

    Note the "and" in verse 10:

    10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    At this point, at the end of the thousand years, after fire has consumed the nations who sided with the devil and opposed God, after the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of burning sulfur,

    11

    Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

    Earth and Sky fled, they are no more- now ALL (including those who remain after the Great Battle of Rev 20:9, as well as everyone in the grave) stand before the Lord, and are judged as individuals:

    12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    How in the world can you take a narrative written so plainly, that clearly describes events yet to occur in chronological order, and get any other meaning? For Pete’s sake, Joseph, if you can twist this Scripture, you can twist anyone of the Scriptures, which is exactly what we are warned not to do! Therein lie the difference in those who have God’s Holy Spirit, and those who don’t- you will know them by their fruits!

    More error by Joseph:

    PS. you said: These are the offspring of those who survive Armageddon, there is no other (Scripturally proven) way for them

    to be anything else.

    Sure their is. This is the kind of WT nonsense I refuted as well.

    The doctrine involved can also be stated like this: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,

    and between thy seed and her seed; It is this seed of the woman that makes up the Nations not the

    few survivors (children) that are changed somehow at such a time.

    First, this is NOT "WT nonsense"! Your reading comprehension is not what it could be! I am not going to state what the WT teaches, it is clear I am not teaching that hogwash! Your explanation is SO beyond any kind of Scriptural teaching! You stated:

    "It is this seed of the woman that makes up the Nations

    Do you even know who the "woman" is? This is his church, those who make up his bride! Do you know who "the seed" is? These are the faithful ones of the ages, the spiritual offspring of Abraham, those who belong as children to Christ! And you teach that these are "the nations" that oppose God in the final battle???

    not the few survivors (children) that are changed somehow at such a time. "

    FEW survivors? Huh? What is few? A thousand, a million? Who knows? In one thousand years time, their offspring, just as Abraham’s offspring, will be like the sands of the seashore! How, and why do they need to be "changed" somehow? You make absolutely no sense. Go ahead and bury yourself with your lack of understanding, Joseph. Or, better yet, fear God, humble yourself, and admit your error.

    "When the word of the kingdom comes to anyone, and the sense of it is not clear to him, then the Evil One comes, and quickly takes away that which was put in his heart. He is the seed dropped by the wayside."- Matt 13:19

    Again, you are in error on these teachings. Read what it says, and drop your preconceived notions that don't fit unless you twist Scripture!.

    "Do not become wise in your own eyes. Fear God and turn away from bad" -Proverbs 3: 7

    "There exists a way that is upright before a man, but the ways of death are the end of it afterward." -Proverbs 14: 12

    I pray for you to get the correct understanding, and stop teaching as men do in their error, but as God reveals through His Holy Spirit.

    Sincerely,

    Brother Apostate

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    BA,

    Then, And, Also, the word has many meanings so you still do not get it. This word is also translation dependent. Have you checked any others? I did and you lose BA. This is not proof. It was sad really. You had nothing to offer anyway. It makes no difference in this case since it is another vision altogether and takes place at another time.

    Joseph

    PS. You said: Do you even know who the "woman" is? This is his church, those who make up his bride!

    No not in this case. The woman is Eve. That is why Adam said: 20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. The seed is her seed. The prophecy was applied to her seed right from the beginning.

    JM

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate

    Joseph,

    I stand by what I wrote.

    In any Translation.

    If you have to re-order the verses in a chapter so it fits your interpretation, you lose.

    If you have to misinterpret what the Scriptures say about the woman and her seed, so it fits your mis-interpretation, you lose

    I'll pray for you.

    Sincerely,

    BA

    P.S.- Anyone could rearrange verses in many scriptures and come up with a meaning that is far away from what was clearly intended. Heck, anyone could do the same with any novel or encyclopedia. Your refusal to admit your error is proud and childish. Shame on you.

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    BA,

    Pray away. Can't hurt.

    Joseph

  • lalliv01
    lalliv01

    I believe that all descendants of Adam,with the exception of Jesus,were condemned to death when Adam was

    condemned to death; in the day Adam ate the forbidden fruit he was a "dead man walking", which included all of us.

    Ever since then all of mankind were "dead men walking" and nobody has ever,ever, had a chance to live forever.

    The first opportunity for "life",life without death, will only be a possibility AFTER the millenium. Until then,life

    without death in our future is truly an impossability. Death and hades will hound us until after the millenium and

    only then will we really live.

    Just my beliefs people, I don't wish to debate. Thanks.

  • Brother Apostate
    Brother Apostate

    Joseph states:

    No not in this case. The woman is Eve. That is why Adam said: 20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. The seed is her seed. The prophecy was applied to her seed right from the beginning.

    Galatians 3:15-16 states:

    "Brothers and sisters, I offer an example from everyday life: When a covenant has been ratified, even though it is only a human contract, no one can set it aside or add anything to it. Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his descendant. Scripture does not say, “and to the descendants,” referring to many, but “and to your descendant,” referring to one, who is Christ."

    John 17:20-26 states:

    20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24 "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25 "Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

    Clear enough for you?

    You can stop twisting Scripture, Joseph. You are buried.

    BA- Next?

  • lalliv01
    lalliv01

    I would like to clarify that in my previous statement I was refering to all humans with an

    earthly destiny,not Christ's brothers who have a heavenly hope. They of course have

    immortality as their reward as soon as they are resurrected. People who are given an

    opportunity at everlasting life,at the end of the millenium,are not, in my belief, immortal,

    self sustaining.

    lalliv01

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Clear enough for you?

    BA,

    Yes, it shows that you do not know what you are doing. You compare the seed of Abraham in Galatians to the seed of Eve in Genesis. The only thing they have in common is a word that is being used to point to another promise. Ga 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Or like this: Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. One or many as stated here when this prophecy is applied it still is not all of the seed produced by Eve. Abrahams seed does not change the fact that the seed of Eve (a much larger number of seeds) is the seed that will also be resurrected. The seed of Eve is not changed by such remarks in Galatians. The seed of Eve will bruise the seed of the serpent as stated and win. The serpent will damage but fail to conquer this seed as stated.. Just because it sounds like something the Christ will do does not make it the same seed or part of the same prophecy. Both have a function and that is to conquer the serpent. The final test proves this point. Christ is not involved in it. The seed is on its own when the serpent is released.

    The followers of Christ are not the only ones our Lord died for. 1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. It is this whole world, the seed of Eve that I was discussing, not the seed of Abraham or David.

    Joseph

  • Sarah Smiles
    Sarah Smiles

    Maybe I need to rethink this one!

    11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

    Earth and Sky fled, they are no more- now ALL (including those who remain after the Great Battle of Rev 20:9, as well as everyone in the grave) stand before the Lord, and are judged as individuals:

    12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

    I think I assumed that people were ressurrected on the earth but how can that be when it says Earth and Sky are no more! so if the dead are standing before the throne is this in heavens pre New Earth! but what about the holy city! OH boy I need to read this again, and again! that is how Revelation is one can read it and read it and learn something new!

    Sorry Josephm for calling you arrogant, I enjoy reading your viewpoints!

  • Sarah Smiles
    Sarah Smiles
    They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    I was just wondering, how long does this second death last? I think of death it is no more, but it say tormented day and night for ever and ever! Are the Jehovah Witness right? How long is for ever and ever? I am thinking probably until the rest of the dead are judged and it is the second death! Is that a firery type place! It is late and I cant spell abyss!

    Will God put people into a fiery abyss to be tormented forever and ever? How long does the second death last?

    Just wanted to see what you all had to say!

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