Is It Impossible for God to Lie?

by JosephAlward 28 Replies latest watchtower bible

JosephAlward

The Bible says that "…it is impossible for God to lie.." (Hebrews 6:18).
However, if causing a person to believe something which is not the truth is a lie, then that is exactly what Paul said God did:
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And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
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The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
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and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
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For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie
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and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. (2 Thessalonians 2:8-10)
Thus, Paul tells us that God deluded the wicked, and caused them to believe "the lie," in order that God could destroy them. It doesn't get much plainer than this. If Paul is correct, God caused a people to believe a lie; that's the same as lying, and therefore the Hebrews author was wrong about it being "impossible" for God to lie. Or, if the Hebrews author was correct, Paul must have been wrong about what God did. Either way, the Bible is in error.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
logical

Paul's letters arent scripture. Paul's letters are largely his opinions.
pomegranate

>>2 Thess 2:9-12
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.<<
The ones above already love the lie because they refuse to love the truth.
Here's your truth Joe:
11 For this reason [they hate TRUTH already] God sends them a powerful delusion [God sends the TRUTH, which is seen as a powerful delusion to those who love the lie] so that they will believe the lie [Truth is a delusion according to them, so when they see it they believe the lie even deeper] 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
God did not lie. He sent the truth, which is viewed as a powerful delusion to those who love the lie, so they believe the lies. Why?
"...so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."
JosephAlward

Can God lie?
If lying means causing someone to believe something that is not true, then that's *exactly* what God did. He caused the wicked to believe something which was not true. Pom will argue that he had good reason for doing this, and I won't dispute that point, nor do I think it *should* be disputed. However, this does not let the Hebrews author off the hook. The Hebrews author wrote that it was "impossible for God to lie." Thus, either the Hebrews author is wrong, or Paul is wrong; either way, the Bible is in error.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
pomegranate

>>If lying means causing someone to believe something that is not true, then that's *exactly* what God did.<<
Well Joe, if a man comes across the truth of which God sent and that man believes it to be a lie, it is NOT that God lied when he sent the truth, rather it is the man who believed the truth to be a lie who is the liar.
It is the ones who percieves the powerful truth as a delusion of their own accord (as liars love lies), not by that which God has sent to further seperate the truth from the lie.
>>He caused the wicked to believe something which was not true.<<
That is not correct. He WILL cause the wicked to believe their lies even deeper because God will send truth as light. The wicked hate the light of truth, so they will see the light of truth as a delusion. Something that is not real. But the truth is real, and it is by way of truth that seperating will be further accomplished.
The powerful delusion sent by God will be the truth of Him and his plan to destroy that which is against him. You see Joe, to you, I AM a delusion, but rather believe what I am showing you, you believe the lie.
Pretty basic stuff.
The powerful delusion sent by God to the wicked and liars is TRUTH. There is nothing more delusional to the wicked than the truth. They believe truth to be a delusion and a lie, they beleive the darkness to be the light, SO THEY GO DEEPER into believeing their lies of darkness.
"...so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness."
JosephAlward

Pom observes, "He will CAUSE the wicked to believe their lies even deeper because God will send truth as light. " (Emphasis is mine.)
Alward responds: Case closed.
Pom, you have inadvertently conceded the argument by observing the "cause" and effect relationship that proves my point. Your words above show that you know that God *did* "cause" their belief in lies to deepen.
You also have to admit that it was God's wish that the wicked suffer by not knowing the truth, so you can't argue that God was acting in good faith by sending them the truth. God knew that by sending the truth it would deepen their belief in a lie. Since God is all-powerful, and therefore can do anything, God *could* have found a way for the wicked to know the truth, and not a lie, if God had wanted that to happen. The fact that God didn't do this, but instead did what God *knew* would deepen their misunderstanding, the consequences suffered by the wicked were clearly *intended* by God. God deliberately deepened their belief in a lie, and that's the same as lying. If not, why not?
Now, unless you can explain why you think that God did *not* intentionally deepen the wicked's belief in lies, you'll have to admit that God lied. However, to offer such an explanation, you'll have to explain why you've already admitted that God did "cause" the belief in the lies to deepen, but nevertheless don't believe that God caused the depth of belief in lies to increase. Can you do the impossible?
I'll explain it to you in other words to make sure that I'm making my point: Anyone who has the ability to impart the truth to someone, but who deliberately chooses not to do so, and in fact does the very thing that person *knows* will deepen another person's belief in a lie, is telling a lie, is a liar. There's no getting around this. Now, you have to agree that God had the power to make the wicked know the truth, but he didn't use this power; instead, took another course of action which he knew would not let the wicked know the truth. That's lying. Unless you think the all-powerful god of the Bible was not powerful enough to make the wicked know the truth, you'll have to concede that this god lied.
In conclusion, it seems that God lied, according to Paul. Since the Hebrews author said that it is impossible for God to lie, either the Hebrews author was wrong, or else Paul was wrong; either way, the Bible is in error.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
pomegranate

>>Pom, you have inadvertently conceded the argument by observing the "cause" and effect relationship that proves my point. Your words above show that you know that God *did* "cause" their belief in lies to deepen.<<
At refusing the TRUTH that God sent. Your initial contention was God lied, not that liars believe lies whether shallow or deep, or the CAUSE.
They already believe lies. Just as those who believe truth believe truth.
The liars already had their lies. The truth lovers already had their truth. Deepening of either side does not change either side, as a lie is always a lie and the truth is always the truth.
>>You also have to admit that it was God's wish that the wicked suffer by not knowing the truth, so you can't argue that God was acting in good faith by sending them the truth.<<
God's will that the wicked suffer by means of the light of truth has nothing to do with your contention that God lied. In fact, it supports just the opposite.
John 3:19, This is the verdict: Light has come into the world [to the wicked, a powerful delusion], but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
>>God knew that by sending the truth it would deepen their belief in a lie. Since God is all-powerful, and therefore can do anything, God *could* have found a way for the wicked to know the truth, and not a lie, if God had wanted that to happen.<<
That would make God a lover of the wicked of which He is not. The wicked KNOW the truth. They refuse the truth. He doesn't force it, he shows it. The wicked have been shown it, they know it and they refuse it The wicked shall be destroyed. The all knowing and all powerful God has known from the beginning of Satanic rebellion who shall love truth and who shall despise it.
>>The fact that God didn't do this, but instead did what God *knew* would deepen their misunderstanding, the consequences suffered by the wicked were clearly *intended* by God.<<
Your all knowing and all powerful God knows that regardless of what TRUTH the wicked are FULLY shown, they will ALWAYS be wicked. They will piss on the truth. The will give the finger to God.
Isa 26:10
10 Though grace is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
and regard not the majesty of the LORD.
That is why they are to be destroyed. They are a hopeless lot, just like Satan. The truth to Satan is a powerful delusion, and it IS NOT the truth that caused Satan to be the father of the lie. It was his jealousy and covetness within HIM that caused the infective outbreak.
>>God deliberately deepened their belief in a lie, and that's the same as lying. If not, why not?<<
No it is not. If God sent Christ as light and the wicked refused him and loved their wicked lying ways even more, it seems it is the ones that refuse truth of their own accord who willfully plunge THEMSELVES into deeper darkness on their own because of their refusal.
>>Now, unless you can explain why you think that God did *not* intentionally deepen the wicked's belief in lies, you'll have to admit that God lied.<<
No, you have to admit TRUTH is the wickeds own demise. They were wicked before the truth, and were wicked after the truth. God hardened their hearts, and that is NOT a lie, he willfully proclaims that His truth will harden the hearts of the wicked, then they will be squashed.
Rom 9:18
18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
See that last part of the text above? God willfully had written down here what is echoed in 2 Thes 2. The truth of God WILL harden the hearts of the wicked, since he said it here, and shows he will do it there, the truth of him saying what he WILL do is not a lie, rather something the wicked despise [TRUTH] and causes them to be hardened. No lie, Just prophecy to be fulfilled.
>>However, to offer such an explanation, you'll have to explain why you've already admitted that God did "cause" the belief in the lies to deepen, but nevertheless don't believe that God caused the depth of belief in lies to increase. Can you do the impossible?<<
Rom 9:18
18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Can you fight against God? Impossible. Why don't you tell Him your rules by which He has to live by.
>>>I'll explain it to you in other words to make sure that I'm making my point: Anyone who has the ability to impart the truth to someone, but who deliberately chooses not to do so,<<
The truth was NOT hidden Big Joe, nor was it deliberately chosen not to be revealed. The truth was FULLY revealed. The truth was shone like a light and REFUSED as a lie by the wicked. You are as usual twisting the topic.
>>and in fact does the very thing that person *knows* will deepen another person's belief in a lie, is telling a lie, is a liar.<<
No that is wrong, it is for the purpose of seperating and making a class distinction. The division of the weeds and the wheat. Sheep from the goats. The time for deviant people of perversion to be revealed as they are so they can be exposed as the true darkness they really wanted themsleves to be.
>>There's no getting around this. Now, you have to agree that God had the power to make the wicked know the truth,<<
He most certainly did that 2000 years ago. The truth of Christ was SHONE brightly. The Pharisees and their cohorts FLATLY rejected the truth. The Pharisees "knew" the truth as it stood right in front of them. THEY REJECTED TRUTH.
>>but he didn't use this power; instead, took another course of action which he knew would not let the wicked know the truth.<<
He sent his power Joe and YOU deny it. Just like the Pharisees. Christ was sent as a witness to the sheep and as a condemnation to the goats. Jesus Christ shall seperate by God's truth, those into everlating life and those into everlasting cutting off.
He will send his power again soon, and the wicked will STILL rather believe their lies. The truth to them is a lie. The truth to them is a delusion.
>>That's lying.<<
No that's truth. Of which you are a despiser of. Could it be that you are being hardened Joe? Could it be that God has POWER over little old you? You bet.
>>Unless you think the all-powerful god of the Bible was not powerful enough to make the wicked know the truth, you'll have to concede that this god lied.<<
The wicked refused Christ just as you do. he wicked will know the truth. They'll REFUSE the truth...and your heart may be turning to stone.
Rom 9:22-23
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-
What if He did that Joe? Like you're gonna stop it!!
JosephAlward

Pom's reply certainly is quite defensive and windy. I think he thinks bluster and outrage will win the argument. Let me rephrase my argument in as simply as I can, so that he might better focus his energies on what's important.
I invite Pom to tell us whether he agrees or disagrees with the following statements. If he agrees with the statement, let him just say "I agree." If he disagrees, let him say "I disagree," and explain why he disagrees. I will agree to submit myself to the same type of questioning from him if he will do this for me, provided he responds in good faith.
Here are the statements:
1. God is all-powerful, and with him all things are possible, because the Bible says so.
2. Since God is all powerful, he had the power to impart the truth to the wicked.
3. Since God is all powerful, he also had the power to deepen the wicked's belief in a lie.
4. Pom said that God did "cause" the wicked's belief in a lie to deepen.
5. If one causes someone to believe even more deeply a lie, one has made the harder for the believer in the lie to recognize the lie and thus abandon it. This is true even if one is not the one who caused the original lie to be believed.
6. If someone deliberately does something which makes a lie easier to believe, then one is fostering a stronger belief in the lie, which is equivalent to lying.
Joseph F. Alward
"Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"
http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html
pomegranate

I will answer they way I choose thank you very much.
>>1. God is all-powerful,<<
Agree.
>>and with him all things are possible,<<
Disagree. He will not lie. He will not commit suicide, now will He? Of course not. He will not dissapoint those he loves. It is impossible for him to be like Satan. All things are possible to suit his will of GOOD. I think you get the truth of God right?
>>2. Since God is all powerful, he had the power to impart the truth to the wicked.<<
If you mean by "impart" meaning to FORCE them to believe, no I disagree. If you mean to impart as in that's what he did when revealing Christ to them and ALL, then he did exactly that. Christ was imparted, evil doesn't accept it.
You play the elementary game of God. Your logic is based on "If God is so big and powerful, can He make a rock so big that He Himself can't pick it up?"
Your logic is based on God committing suicide.
>>3. Since God is all powerful, he also had the power to deepen the wicked's belief in a lie.<<
Agree. Which has nothing to do with God being all powerful, it has to do with God being all truthful and willfully letting the liars continue their course. It is the refusal of truth that sends the liars into a hardened heart, which God let's happen.
>>4. Pom said that God did "cause" the wicked's belief in a lie to deepen.<<
Not by God lying of which you said first and still premise, but by sending the truth, which is not a lie. The wicked live the lie, after seeing the truth, they reject it as a delusion and believe THEIR WICKED WAY is good.
>>5. If one causes someone to believe even more deeply a lie, one has made the harder for the believer in the lie to recognize the lie and thus abandon it. This is true even if one is not the one who caused the original lie to be believed.<<
If one shows the TRUTH to one who believes lies, loves evil and wickedness, was it the truth that made the liar want to stay in the darkness? Of course not!! The liar makes his own bed, he rejects the TRUTH, that which was shown to him.
>>6. If someone deliberately does something which makes a lie easier to believe, then one is fostering a stronger belief in the lie, which is equivalent to lying.<<
You are a joke.
If you habitually commit rape, and you are shown the TRUTH that rape is wrong wrong wrong, and you hate that you have been shown the TRUTH of rape being wrong, because you love to rape. The TRUTH you have been shown is a delusion to YOU. You say to yourself, I love to rape...if I love it, it can't be wrong. I make my own rules of how I act. I believe rape is GOOD. Then you go out and rape even more and more despite the one who showed you that rape is wrong.
The man who believes the lie after being shown the truth, sends HIMSELF deeper into believeing HIS OWN SIN.
pomegranate

John 3:19-21
20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
The light has been shown.

Is It Impossible for God to Lie?

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