Free Speech/Nathan

by Guest with Questions 40 Replies latest jw friends

  • Happy Harvester
    Happy Harvester
    our belief is still a personal choice we make. And no matter which one it is, should be respected by others.

    I feel sure this is an irrational precept.

    Why should we respect that which has not been shown to be rational?

    Just so you don't think I'm picking on xtianity, quite a few fundamentalists of a certain faith other than Xtianity believe that blowing up the twin towers was an act of god's will.

    Just because jihad (Islamic or Christian) is a religious concept and some people personally agreed with it as personal religious belief, doesn't mean I need to respect it.

    Just because the bible says such and such, doesn't mean I need to respect it.

    The bible and many other religious scriptures contain enormously conflicting, violent, racist, sexist, and just-plain-silly laws, ideas, stories and concepts.

    Just because some bearded, OCD, temporal-lobe disordered, so-called holy man wrote it down during a time when most people could not read or write, believing writing was some kind of magic - and declared it religion - doesn't mean I should respect it.

    As far as I am concerned, that's what scripture is - inspired of superstion, ignorance, brainwashing and social control - NOT of any creator - other than humans.

    If such strident rationality is offensive, I stand by my offensiveness.

  • Happy Harvester
    Happy Harvester

    Oh yeah. Peace out and love.

  • Guest with Questions
    Guest with Questions

    I was going to respond but accidently lost my post so I will do it tomorrow. I'm just too tired now.

    I just want to add, this is not a cop-out.

  • journey-on
    journey-on
    Why should we respect that which has not been shown to be rational?

    H.H.

    I think she's saying we should respect one's right to make the choice. You may think it's irrational. But that's your opinion. That opinion is respected. Someone else who has reason to believe in a supernatural god should be accorded the same respect whether you think it's rational or not. What's rational to you may be irrational to someone else. Respect the right of each individual to hold his own opinion.

    Respecting the right to believe is not the same as respecting that person's right to push that belief on another by any means at one's disposal.

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    HH,

    you are right, you do not have to respect the message of the bible or God if you choose not to. Like I said, the Bible has merit only in the eyes of believers anyway. We Christians get into trouble when we try to quote scripture to those who do not believe and then somehow we get offended when the scripture does not move such ones to act on it as it does with us (believers).

    It is your personal choice to not give the Bible or God any consideration. What I meant by my post is that as a fellow human being, regardless of our personal beliefs, we should respect the people (not necessarily the views) who may have a different view on things than we do. I respect your right and other's rights to express your own beliefs or non-beliefs as long as you are not intentionally insulting me, and would only hope that in expressing mine, I am respectful and sensitive to other people's feelings. Peace, Lilly

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    Journey On and Lovelylil:

    That is exactly what I'm saying! We don't have to respect the beliefs of others at all. Only their right to hold them just as we hold our own, as well as their right to speak them or write them. Of course others have the right not to listen or not to read or to argue. They do not have to give an audience. They do not have the right to silence the speaker or writer by any means, though. They do not have the right to act with aggression towards the other person because they do not like the message!

    Cog

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

    In many cases that is good advice. But not all. Say you have a three-foot by three-foot cardboard box, and someone tells you that there is a red ball inside that measures three feet. But you open the box and see nothing inside. There is clear absence of evidence that a ball is inside. You can do all sorts of tests and experiments to detect the presence of the ball, in case it is invisible. But no evidence of its presence can be obtained. Does that mean that this is evidence that the ball is absent? I think nearly anyone evaluating the situation would agree so. So a better more nuanced way of stating the proposition is this: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence unless there is reason to specifically expect the presence of evidence."

    Look at the Trevor/Linda debacle. There is reason to specifically expect that if Linda exists, there would be evidence of that existence. If she was married to Trevor, there should be a marriage license. She should have a birth certificate. If these don't exist, then one is left with two possibilities: (1) Linda doesn't exist, or (2) There must be some unusual circumstance that would make all records of Linda's existence vanish. If there is no viable explanation for (2), then Occam's Razor would naturally lead one to conclude that absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

    While the advice may be true in formal black-and-white deductive logic, we more commonly evaluate evidence probabilistically through induction. So one may conclude from one's observations that zebras have black and white stripes. But there is a leap in logic there because one has not examined every single zebra in existence and which has ever lived to see if there are exceptions to this. But the absence of blue-and-red striped zebras and the absence of no-striped zebras is enough to convince a person that the statement that all adult zebras have black and white stripes is probably true. It is not a formal proof, but a reasonable generalization. So if one makes a proposition that, if true, should be supported by evidence with reasonable probability, and if that evidence does not exist, then it is reasonable to infer that the proposition is false. Hence, we are able to judge the statement that "Zebras have pink and purple polka dots" is false without having to physically examine every single zebra in the world to be sure.

    On account of this, it is useful to have a burden of proof. If a generalization is not known to have any exceptions, the burden lies with the person wanting to falsify the generalization. If a person believes that zebras can have pink and purple polka dots, it is not reasonable for her to demand a skeptic to prove that every single zebra in the world doesn't have pink and purple polka dots. The burden of proof is on the believer to submit evidence that zebras can in fact have colored polka dots. Similarly, the burden of proof is on the believer to substantiate the claim that the Loch Ness monster exists, or Santa Claus, or the god Thor. Is the burden of proof on the person to prove that the Loch Ness monster is a myth, or on the person to demonstrate that this creature exists in the first place?

    As far as God is concerned, faith is not a matter of empirical facts and evidence. It explicitly is belief irrespective of evidence, "faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see" (Hebrews 11:1). It is a conclusion that is orthogonal to evidence, it furnishes its own proof for the believer (this also means imho that matters of faith are not something to be proved through empirical evidence). That is a rather different philosophical approach than reaching an unprovable conclusion (like the belief that no pink and purple polka dotted zebras exist) through induction; the two approaches are not the same. Or some reinforce their faith with their own subjectivity, i.e. (from their own POV) how God touched their life. But a person who appeals to their own subjective experience (and which is more than sufficient for him/herself) alone has access to it; others cannot evaluate it and accord it objective value. Many atheists expressing strong atheism may make an inductive leap, but that is no different than concluding that the Santa Claus does not exist. Weak atheists (= agnostics in common parlance) are open to the possibility of God's existence but recognize (in probabilistic terms) that its likelihood is rather low, such that non-existence is judged as more probable than existence. Atheism here is literally a-theism, i.e. no theistic belief. No specific belief in a God as opposed to a specific belief about God not existing. If God dramatically intervenes in the world's affairs in an undeniable way, then a specific belief (in favor of God's existence) would be formed under those circumstances. Just like in the case of Santa Claus. You developed your (strong) conclusion that Santa doesn't exist on the basis of absence of evidence. But if suddenly objective evidence of Santa's existence presented itself on this Christmas Eve (i.e. observable and testable to everyone, NOT subjective evidence that someone else could dismiss as a hallucination), then you obviously would have to revisit your initial premise that Santa doesn't exist. Similarly if someone discovers a real live pink and purple polka dotted zebra. But until those things happen, the conclusion that is most probable in view of the evidence is the one that is usually preferred. Now different people will inevitably evaluate the evidence in different ways, but regardless of this, the burden of proof remains on the person asserting than an (objectively) unobserved entity exists. Just as the burden of proof rests on the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society that it an instrument of an unseen "faithful and discreet slave".

    BTW, I would classify myself as a weak atheist....I am not willing to dismiss others' subjective experiences (while at the same time not treating them as useable, objective evidence for myself), indeed I respect others' faith even if I reach other conclusions, and I would be glad to revise my evaluation of things if the evidentiary situation changes, but at present I have no specific belief in the existence or non-existence of God...though I view the latter as more probable than the former. At the same time, I am very interested in beliefs as a social phenomenon and how they reflect changes in society and intellectual development. There is a lot that can be learned culturally if we try to understand what others believe and why they believe.

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Leolaia,

    That was awesome! Lilly

  • cognizant dissident
    cognizant dissident

    Wow, that was great reasoning Leolaia!

    I would like to print that off and keep it for future use with my relatives. I can never think of all those great words when they are needed!

    Cog

  • Vinny
    Vinny

    I have found Nathan to be one of the more respectful (of believers) atheist posters here on the JWD or anywhere. A few atheists try to push their views on all kinds of threads, including threads that have nothing to do with the subject matter. A few believers do this as well. I disagree with that. I always try to keep those debates on those kinds of specific threads. This is a JW recovery site, not a Theists/Agnostics/Atheists debate site. While there is always room for some mixing it up, preferrably on appropriate threads, opposing views should not be pushed on other kinds of threads from either side IMO.

    I have not read what he said that was considered disrespectful. But if you could post it here, I would be curious to see it. He has a wicked, dry sense of humor at times, which could be misinterpreted perhaps.


    Vinny

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