Easily verifiable proofs please

by Eyes Open 24 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • 5go
    5go
    I'm not being lazy; it's just I need to do this as well as I can given the very limited time I have and know that a lot of you are far more familiar with JW theology and schenanigans, and their weaknesses. (My disbelief is due to learning about things which invalidate the bible as well as modern-day interpretations of apocalypse rather than convoluted JW doctrine.)

    I would conscentrate on the bible as a whole rather than just the JW's view of it. It will just work out slightly better for you if you do.

  • Atlantis
    Atlantis

    The New World Translation

    What the Scholars Really Said

    http://www.forananswer.org/Top_JW/Scholars%20and%20NWT.htm

    Cheers! Atlantis-

  • Salivating Dog
    Salivating Dog

    Tell them you are the most evil sinner on earth, and by admitting that you are not being a self-righteous hypocrite like other people.

    Me personally, I know I am bad and evil....but I try to be good and do the right thing.

    Jesus came to save admitted sinners and punish self-righteous hypocrites.

    Which would you rather be?

  • Eyes Open
    Eyes Open

    Thanks Baba. It's so hard to know how quickly/far to push it, but they know I've kept myself to myself for a long time now. The fact that they're willing to discuss things with me is something I feel need to take advantage of while I am around to do so. But yes, I will try to be gentle and questioning.

    Atlantis - thanks for the 'What the Scholars Really Said' article. I hadn't come across it before. I need to read and see if I can get hold of printed proof in book form as this is the only way they'll read anything.

    5go - I've already said to them what I think of the bible, and now wish I hadn't. Anyway, I'm not going to try to convince them they can't believe in Christianity, just that this isn't Christianity.

    Salivating Dog - I guess you are joking. Anyway, using that type of comment wouldn't get anywhere with JW's, at least not the ones I know.

    Thanks all.

    Any specific ideas on easily provable doctrine see-sawing still gratefully accepted.

  • drew sagan
    drew sagan

    If you are going to only get one crack at this, then my suggestion is to not do it. At least not right now.

    People usually go through a two step process of seeing various problems within the organization along with confronting rising doubts.

    Hypocritical Elders, cold and uncompassionate representatives from the society, lack of love, the list could go on. These type of things usually break down the bubble that the JW believes they are living in. They can see that the conditions within the org are not exactly what everybody claims it to be.

    Having gone through a similar experience I would suggest to you that putting yourself in the 'savior' role in trying to deliver them from watchtower bonds will only create trouble. I'm a big fan of keeping peace with JW as long as possible. There is no magic conversation you can have with them. Instead take time to really know the organization in and out. Research the history of their teachings and practices. Simply being informed can help you if the moment arises for you to speak. But I wouldn't make a special effort to show them it's not the truth. They will reject you because it is just to scary.

  • drew sagan
    drew sagan

    Just wanted to add that the phycology of JWs is such that you can never win an intellectual argument, at least not usually.

    The problem is that as soon as you become to much of an intellectual challenge for them, they will begin to take pot shots at you. It happens every time. They will basically say something to the effect of "you just want to beat the slave" or "so, you think you have all the answers" or possibly "so where did you get all this great knowledge that the faithful slave doesn't have?" They will basically accuse you of pride, selfishness and the like. This is because they have no other way out, no other choice.

    There is yet another problem. JWs are fixated on having 'answers'. This means that even if the JW you are talking to begins to confront their doubts they are going to start coming after you with "what if" questions about certain doctrines. Because they are used to having every little detail dictated to them, they are going to demand the same from you.

    This is of course not fair at all. A person leaving a religious system that claims to have a hold on as much 'truth' as the JWs can never just leave and at the same time have figured out their position and argumentation for every single piece of theology and teaching. It's not reasonable. That doesn't mean however that a person can't realize that the JWs are wrong and still leave, because they sure can. It's just that there is no way that a member who recently leaves could ever satisfy the JWs desire for 'answers' to their questions. And even if they did, whe are back to my previous point of the JWs calling a 'bluff' by simply stating that you are just arrogant and a know it all.

    I would also add that JWs in general treat fellow members who deflect from the group much worse in a discussion than they would any random person who is not JW. Especially in a debate. Because you have already 'agreed' to believe much of what is taught they will keep coming back to "but look at all the good stuff" type argument. This is much differant for a person who was never JW showing a JW 20 or 30 pages of Watchtower lies on paper. It is much more embarrassing and the JW can't resort to emotional and personal attacks because it would be much to disrespectful (not that they wouldn't do it, but because of the social factors it's less likely).

    All this considered I really think it's best you weigh the options. Once you open up to them about this, the relationship is ever changed. If you parents haven't opened up with doubts yet, then it is a real gamble.

  • drew sagan
    drew sagan

    Almost forgot. If you haven't yet, read Crisis of Conscience, In Search of Christian Freedom, The Gentile Times Reconsidered, The Sign of the Last Days When?, and Apocalypse delayed, and Releasing the Bonds. All would be excellent to read and would give you deeper insight.

    I know you asked for Greek study, but just wanted to throw those out there.

  • Eyes Open
    Eyes Open

    Good points, and I know what you mean having been in the organisation from birth. I've already had some personal/emotional attack (which I intend to use to my advantage). But, based on our conversations together up to this point, I think I should do something. I couldn't live with myself if I don't as I won't be around to do it afterwards.

    I've already said a lot and have opened up, so things have changed. But we're still talking and cuddling.

    Thanks again - I'm still listening.

    Edit: Does anyone have a copy of The Gentile Times Reconsidered I could borrow/buy? Amazon is out. Or could someone point me to the scriptural reasons for 607 being wrong?

  • BabaYaga
    BabaYaga

    Eyes Open... here is a link to a book search where you may buy used books from several different independant booksellers... there are several copies of The Gentile Times Reconsidered available.

    http://used.addall.com/ Link to Gentile Times Reconsidered

    Baba.

  • Eyes Open
    Eyes Open

    Nice site. Thanks.

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