Easily verifiable proofs please

by Eyes Open 24 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  AuldSoul

  I find it easier to ask them for Scriptural support for their doctrines.

  Reasoning From the Scripitures p. 283 - p. 284 Organization How can Jehovah’s visible organization in our day be identified?(1) It truly exalts Jehovah as the only true God, magnifying his name.—Matt. 4:10; John 17:3.
  (2) It fully recognizes the vital role of Jesus Christ in Jehovah’s purpose—as the vindicator of Jehovah’s sovereignty, the Chief Agent of life, the head of the Christian congregation, the ruling Messianic King.—Rev. 19:11-13; 12:10; Acts 5:31; Eph. 1:22, 23.
  (3) It adheres closely to God’s inspired Word, basing all its teachings and standards of conduct on the Bible.—2 Tim. 3:16, 17.
  (4) It keeps separate from the world.—Jas. 1:27; 4:4.
  (5) It maintains a high level of moral cleanness among its members, because Jehovah himself is holy.—1 Pet. 1:15, 16; 1 Cor. 5:9-13.
  (6) It devotes its principal efforts to doing the work that the Bible foretold for our day, namely, the preaching of the good news of God’s Kingdom in all the world for a witness.—Matt. 24:14.
  (7) Despite human imperfections, its members cultivate and produce the fruits of God’s spirit—love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, self-control—doing so to such a degree that it sets them apart from the world in general.—Gal. 5:22, 23; John 13:35.

  Explain to them that you are having trouble with this one, since you aren't sure all the teachings are based on the Bible.

  Ask them to Scripturally show why Jesus' disciples shouldn't talk to him or worship him. (John 14:13, 14; Acts 8:59; Revelation 22:20, 21; Hebrews 1:6 {see Kingdom Interlinear}; Revelation 5:11-14) Hint: there aren't any Scriptures saying that Jesus should not be worshipped, there are Scriptures showing that the angels worshipped him.

  Ask them to Scripturally show that someone can be qualified to preach before baptism. There are no Scriptures to support this teaching.

  Ask them to show where the Bible requires unbaptized people to regularly go to meetings, preach, have lengthy Bible study, answer questions to prove Bible knowledge,or pray a specific prayer of dedication in order to get baptized. There are no Scriptures to support any of this. (Acts 2:37-42; Acts 8:34-40; Acts 10:34-48 {less than 200 Greek words about Jesus and these Gentiles were baptized with Holy Spirit}; and Acts 16:14, 15, 25-34 {two separate accounts})

  Ask them where the Bible says someone can get resurrected without figuratively eating the bread from heaven. (John 6:41-65)

  Ask what religion the Bible says everyone should be and where it says we should worship. (John 4:19-26; 6:66-69; 1 Corinthians 3:16-23)

  I would try this approach if I had it to do over again. It leaves the onus of defending indefensible doctrine on them, where it rightly belongs.

  Respectfully,
  AuldSoul
• 

  MadTiger

  My initial goal wasn't to bring anyone else out. It was to get them not to bug me about coming back. This was accomplished by bringing up the pedophile protection plan that was recently outed via court judgments.
• 

  drew sagan

  Eyes Open
  
  Buy "The Gentile Times" from the publishers websites:
  
  Commentary Press
  
  If you have already gotten into the discussion this is what I suggest.
  
  There is an excellent paper called "historical idealism and Jehovah's Witnesses". It documents decades of misleading information that has appeared in the Watchtower regarding how it presents its own history. I can send it to you via email if you don't have it. It could be quite helpful.
  
  Jws love to debate, but the point of your discussion is not to debate. It is really important to present facts and quotes straight from the publications that show they are not being honest. See that the Watchtower magazine is not honest about it's past may be a good option. There is a well written paper called "Historical Idealism and Jehovah's Witnesses". It documents decades of untruthful statements found in the magazines. It is well worth a read. I can email to you if you need it.
  
  But there is always the problem that if you have to much research they will start to question where you got it all from. Debating with them is so frustrating! It's only if they personally have softened that you really can talk to them. This is different from person to person.
  
  Back when I disassociated myself I told the story of one Elder who listened to many differant things and was very forward in saying that much of what I was talking about was truthful. Because I was under the pressure of other Elders he eventually sided with them and I was forced out and my wife DF'd. The reason I bring this up is because where that Elder was mentally (he was weakened and lacked faith in the Watchtower) made him open to discussion. If I was his son or somebody who had close contact with him we would have been talking a few times a week he eventually would have come out. Your parents may be in a similar point in their lives, they may not be. It's all at your discression.
  
  So judge where your parents already are. I would also add that it is better to talk with one alone rather than both at the same time. People open up if the pressure from others isn't there.
• 

  Leolaia

  When I was leaving the Watchtower, I amassed a big set of photocopies and typed out my arguments (this was before I had a computer) and essays that I could use when trying to explain to my mom why I didn't believe the Society anymore. Not that I wanted to bring her out as well, but to explain why I believed what I believed. But I never used that material. I never got around to it, circumstances occurred that made it easy for me to leave the congregation on good terms (i.e. moving to another place), and she left on her own a few years later. Putting that material together was more useful for me than anything else, as it helped me remove any doubt from my mind....
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  Eyes Open

  Thanks again all for your input via posts and PM.
  
  I'll carry on with the bits I know I want to discuss, and let you know how it goes at some point.