Did anyone else notice that most of the responses have discussed the analogy instead of the poster's question?
Getting a person to stick to the point goes a long way in demolishing false reasoning.
Help needed: Killing the 'The light gets brighter' argument?
by jah1914 39 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
-
JosephMalik
Jah1914,
Question: 3. Do you think the teacher is upset that you tried and got the wrong answer to a very difficult problem?
The answer is yes. Jesus would not be pleased with such a person that pretended to be authorized by Him and acted as His slave. This is why He clearly stated that on His return to commence His Kingdom He said: 48 "But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Wrong attitude along with the false information offered would be dealt with severely. This is basic theology 101. A faithful and discreet slave cannot even exist on earth until after our Lord returns and examines them in the flesh. Teaching that He returns invisibly is another wrong answer and tends to conceal this problem. The scriptures do not allow for such thinking. There are many such texts but the WT does not apply them for you to see. For example: 2Jo 1:7 "Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist." Such slaves are real and exist as shown but not identified as faithful or discreet. The are identified as antichrist. The teaching itself existed only after our Lord was raised once again and promised to return in a like manner at another time. It is a teaching that the apostles themselves thought and Jesus had to correct as in the case of Thomas. So the WT’s attempt to pre-empt this by moving it in time with their false teaching of invisibility has no validity.
Question: Would he be more upset if you just gave up and didn't keep trying to solve the problem? No! But you would no longer be considered a slave. Salvation is not dependent on Doctrine. It is dependent on what you are as a human being. So your everlasting life will not be lost. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Question: He would certainly be justified in being upset and removing you as a tutor if in the problem you missed some simple math portions(incorrectly added numbers, etc), but that wasn't the case you got the simple stuff right, you just missed the difficult portions.
The WT does not get the simple stuff right. What they do is keep making excuses for the many revealed errors they make while their other teachings continue to destroy you and assure your selection as evil when our Lord returns. Challenge them and offer them the right answer and see if you will be commended or disfellowshipped. You will be told to shut up and wait at the very least. Yet the scriptures say: 31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." The implication is self explanatory. If they do not hold to His teachings that you have now clarified then they are not His disciples (much less an FDS) and you are not obligated to obey them or their suggestion that you keep quiet. If they disfellowship you for this then: 10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church. 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
Question: How should the teacher feel? After all you were one of the few to actually set up and try to help the other students?
There is a vast difference between helping and controlling or dominating the other students. A helpful one no matter how smart would change his answer when the correct answer was offered to him. They would advance together not dominate as the WT does. Peter was corrected by Paul and did not attempt to disfellowship Paul for his interference. Paul even went to Jerusalem to correct them all, and this effort not only failed at the time but took over 14 more years to accomplish. Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. . . 14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?Paul also had to confront James, Peter and John in Jerusalem over this very same problem.
It should not be difficult to understand that: Eph 4:25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. Those that prevent our doing this or divide this body as the WT does do not represent the faith.
Joseph
-
bobld
Yeah,JW are quick to stick up for the mistakes of the FDS/GB.When the FDS/GB said the 1914 greneration would not past away before the end and told the R&F to preach this this message to the people as truth.In the 70's and 80's I said they were full of shit because the end would not come.Of course I was the one totally wrong for not following the direction of the warped FDS/GB.The R&F followed and done exactly what FDS said.Who was right not me according to the FDS and R&F because the FDS is GOD spirit anointed ORG.Did the light get brighter in 1995 because of the Bible truth or the 1995 generation died.TOTAL BULLSHIT.Only 12 years later the light really got bright because they are about to change it again.Yeah wait a few more years for a new change and you will be looking in God face and die.
Bob
-
JosephMalik
Jah1914,
Question: 1. What was true about the (your) answer?
The truth about the wrong answer not coming from the teacher is that it was false.
Question: Did the answer change or did your understanding of it change?
If the understanding was still wrong the answer was still false as in the case of the WT. You are still not getting your information from the teacher as thought. If the understanding was now true then the answer was true and one would at least expect an apology and reason for the error and confusion taught by the leading student not dominance or obedience to them. After all you have access to the same information yourself and can reason it out without such assistance.
Question: 2. How should your fellow students react to the mistake(s) you made?
The student would not be expected to follow their lead but to test their remarks for themselves. Ac 17:11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. They would not teach anything that could not be verified as truth.
Question: How would you want them to react? Once you have what you believe to be the correct answer, should you bring it back to them?
Of course. And in the case of the WT this is not difficult. Very little of what they teach is the truth. Their application of scripture to their HQ staff is a simple example. In which of the many books and magazines printed over the years can they say? This is the truth, there are no mistakes in them? Were you obligated to follow such mistakes? No! Why is it then that they no longer continue to teach from them? Because they are so bad that they can no longer support the views taught in them. Present theology is equally as bad but they conceal it which is the real reason they must shut you up. Can they forgive sin? Can they raise the dead? Can they heal the sick? Are you their disciple? No! To each question, so you are not obligated to follow their lead.
Joseph
-
Honesty
I would just ask him to read aloud:
1 John 2:25-27
And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life. I have written these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you.
The anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you don’t need anyone to teach you. Instead, His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie; just as it has taught you, remain in Him.
-
skeeder
The GB claims to get their direction from Jesus (actually most of the time you hear about Jehovah using the FDS with Jesus not even getting honorable mention.)
True, he did say that he had things to tell them that they were not ready for, but I can't think of one time when Jesus gave direction to his followers, then later had to change it because he got a clearer understanding.
S
-
Lady Liberty
Dear Jah1914,
First of all, WELCOME to the forum!!! "The light gets brighter" excuse for change is one of the most frusterating things to try to reason with a JW about. The way I have explained it is like this:
The light gets brighter reasoning will work if the line of thinking never changes from wrong to right. True your understanding of a stand or a teaching can get brighter, say they thought something was ok, but Holy Spirit helped them see that it was wrong, and then from then on it would always be wrong. But to change in the opposite direction and go from a wrong to a right it cannot.
Lets take the blood isssue for example. For years, the policy was to "pour out the blood" right? You couldn't even use products for your garden that were made from stored animal blood..such as deer repellant. No blood transfusions, no storing blood what so ever. So that was the "then " light as we knew it to be. Then years later the organization changed the policy on blood to allow for the use of fractions to be a conscience matter. So in all reality, the "blood is to be poured out" thinking changed to be a "it's ok to use fractions that are taken and derived from "stored blood". They claim the light got brighter. However that line of reasoning does not reason out.
Think about it. If they were truely being guided by the Holy Spirit as they claim they are, then the initial stand would never change to go in the opposite direction. The Bible says God does not change. Therefore something truely wrong in God's eyes now, will be wrong in his eyes a billion years from now. We may not understand all the reasons why it is wrong, but in time the Light would get brighter as our understanding grew, and more light was shed as to why it was STILL wrong. If it was from Jehovah and the Holy Spirit was guiding them to begin with, then it would and could never ever change from being a "wrong" to a "right".
Think about how many ones who were told years ago that taking a organ transplant was a disfellowshipping act, and punishable by disfellowshipping because it was considered canabalism. How many refrained from having such needed transplants, and died because of being loyal to what they believed was direction from Jehovah on such a policy. How many lost their mate, their child their father or mother, brother or sister or friend?? Only to have years later a policy change to being a conscience matter? Was Holy Spirit guiding them or not? If so how could a wrong turn into a right?
Either the Holy Spirit gets things wrong, such as the two examples I spoke of, or the Governing Body keeps getting it wrong. If they keep getting it wrong, then are they really being lead by Holy Spirit?? I think the answer is obvious. One other point..
The Governing Body always says, especially when they change a policy..that we are not inspired, but directed by Holy Spirit. So we are going to make mistakes because we are imperfect..that is why the light gets brighter. This was taken from a recent thread..see how the dictionary shows that inspired and spirit directed both mean the same thing...to be guided. So for them to say they are not inspired, but spirit directed is "double speak."
They want total obediance as if they were guided by God himself, yet when it comes to making mistakes, they claim they are led by the Holy Spirit, but make mistakes because they are imperfect. The problem is that the teachings that they claim are from God himself through his Holy Spirit, are taught for years and years. Does it really make sence that Jesus would direct his "slave" in the wrong direction, and allow them to teach his sheep the wrong thing for 10, 20 30 40,etc..years?? Would Jesus allow his "slave" to teach them and inforce them by means of disfellowshipping, even at the expence of those who would die to remain faithful to a later changing policy?
Here is the thread you may find it very helpful. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/145265/1.ashx
My dear Grandfather died because of the blood issue. A policy that has changed and will likely change again. How many others must die before it too becomes a conscience matter.
Sincerely,
Lady Liberty
P.S. Please keep us posted as to how it goes next meeting.
-
Lady Liberty
Here is the thread I reffered you to above:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/145265/1.ashx
Hello all, Happy Sunday to you!!
Just read Quandrys post about the 2007 Annual meeting notes. This comment made during that meeting just got under my skin, so I decided to start a thread to show the dictionarys definition of both of the words. Dictionary makes it clear they are one and the same! See my post to Quandrys thread:
Dear Quandry,
Thank you for posting this! I found this statement to make not one bit of sence! "We of the Governing body have not always had the right understanding. The Gov. Body is not inspired and neither are the publications. It is the Holy Spirit that helps us to find the correct understanding".See what the dictionary has to say regarding "inspired" v.s. "spirit directed". They are just trying to cover all bases even if they make no sence it won't matter because their followers have given up their brains at the door years ago!
Dictionary "Inspired": Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
in·spire
/ ?n'spa? ? r / Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation [ in-spahy uh r ] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -spired, -spir·ing. –verb (used with object) 1. to fill with an animating, quickening, or exalting influence: His courage inspired his followers. 2. to produce or arouse (a feeling, thought, etc.): to inspire confidence in others. 3. to fill or affect with a specified feeling, thought, etc.: to inspire a person with distrust. 4. to influence or impel: Competition inspired her to greater efforts. 5. to animate, as an influence, feeling, thought, or the like, does: They were inspired by a belief in a better future. 6. to communicate or suggest by a divine or supernatural influence: writings inspired by God. 7. to guide or control by divine influence. 8. to prompt or instigate (utterances, acts, etc.) by influence, without avowal of responsibility. 9. to give rise to, bring about, cause, etc.: a philosophy that inspired a revolution. 10. to take (air, gases, etc.) into the lungs in breathing; inhale. 11. Archaic . a. to infuse (breath, life, etc.) by breathing (usually fol. by into). b. to breathe into or upon. –verb (used without object)
12. to give inspiration.
"Spirit Directed" Spirit = Holy Spirit Dictionary" Directed" Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This di·rect·ed13. to inhale. / d?'r?kt?d, da?- / Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation [ di-rek-tid, dahy- ] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1. guided, regulated, or managed: a carefully directed program. 2. subject to direction, guidance, regulation, etc.
Hmmmm!!! Seems like maybe they need to get a good copy of the dictionary because being inspied means the exact thing as being directed!!!!!! Sincerely, Lady Liberty3. Mathematics . (of an angle or vector) having positive or negative direction or orientation assigned -
RebelWife
So many excellent points! I just want to add: What kind of teacher would allow any student to completely derail the entire class even once? One who's not playing with a full deck. What kind of teacher would allow it to continue ad infinitum? A truly psychotic one that doesn't give a rat's a$$ about the class.
-
RebelWife
Sorry -- can't paragraph tonight. Anyway, it's a pitch-black night. The sun starts to come up. It gets a little brighter, and you see a large black object. Can't tell what it is, but it's shaped roughly like a large animal. Okay. So far, you can tell it's not a house or a book or even a cat. Light gets a little brighter. Whoa, wait. Now it looks like a barn. Gets a little brighter, and now it looks like a penguin. Sun's coming up pretty good now. I think it's a chair. Oh, wait. I'll be darned. It's a tree. Actually, it's a black and white cow. Well, at least I got the black and white part right with the penguin. Does it make sense that anyone could see such a wildly-differing assortment of things?
