Things to understand about talking to a Jehovah's Witness... (page 2)

TD

Excellent post, Drew

The JW "Something Better" retort is also sometimes called the "Burning House" argument. (i.e. A house is on fire, but the occupant refuses to leave unless you can provide him with a new house.)

OnTheWayOut

My discussions with JW's find them using these exact one you describe:

The Something Better fallacy

I like your LDS analogy. I will use that. "Does a Mormon have to necessarily
find something better? No, we can demontrate that their teachings are wrong
even if they seem correct or the best.

"Any JW would agree that a person can leave a church like the LDS, recognize
it as a false institution but not actually know what real truth is."

The Check-list fallacy In addition to their accusations that those who leave can't offer something better, JWs are routinely given check-lists which help them 'determine truth'. Typically such lists look something like this:

Only in the "true religion" you will find...
- a rejection of the pagan trinity
- a rejection of hellfire
- a rejection of immortality of the soul
- use of the divine name Jehovah
- true Christian neutrality, and a loving brotherhood."
- the only unified brotherhood on earth

The JW's I know say this. Each pont could be tackled but they refuse to do it.
I usually try to tell them that they have not arrived at each of these points by their
own deep study separate from the WT literature. The WTS has told them that the
Boreans "checked" the things being taught them for accuracy, explaining that they
assumed it was true, just finding scriptures that can back the teachings in an
isolated setting. We have to assume the WTS is mistaken. The Boreans didn't
necessarily do as WTS said, and regardless, we need to examine each of these
points on our own.

The 'Running Ahead' fallacy

I don't even bother to try too hard on that one. If you mean, "thinking for myself instead
of waiting to be told what to think, deciding how to examine it without WT guidance, well
then, I am guilty.

darth frosty

I'm coming back.

FadingAway

I'm reading and rereading this Drew. Excellent information. Well done!

Open mind

Great job Drew!

I really appreciate the time and effort you put into this.

I especially like the clarity you brought to the whole "Where will I go to?" false dilemma.

Thanks again,

Open Mind

willyloman

I agree that it's pointless to argue doctrine with a dub, for all the reasons stated above.

Because dubs are trained in this manner, they cannot imagine being wrong. They are convinced any argument not coming directly from the organization has its roots in Satan and must be in error! I had what I thought was a really good friend back in the day; apparently I am dead to him now. He was an educated, intelligent and well-balanced individual in most ways. But when we were by ourselves and we'd discuss any of the many things about dub doctrine that made no sense, he'd always say: "Follow the organization, no matter what." He had parked his thinking ability outside the door to the Kingdom Hall!

Consequently, when someone posts here that they are being bothered by elders wanting to know why they aren't active, I always suggest that they just ignore them. Nothing is more effective in dealing with elders than to view them as totally irrelevant to your life. They just cannot deal with that and, for the most part, will just write you off. They are completely immersed and when they judge that you are not, they either have to ask why and go there, or take the easier path and dismiss you from their minds. It's all about picking the low hanging fruit for them (and I know, I was one for 20 years or more).

Odrade

How about the "those are just men" aka: "imperfect men make mistakes that will be corrected" fallacy? grr.

Robert222

I enjoyed reading these posts, very helpful to me. I am dealing with this since leaving the cult and mind controlling religion. My sister is still totally self hypnotized, and gets a weekly dose of hynotism at the sales meetings at the KH. I do like the comments above, and will try to remember them, that those items about hell fire, so forth, is what you have been told by men, your human leaders, you did not learn it for yourself from the scriptures. Same with WT material, why can't you be taught from the bible? Why the need to corporate brochures and magazines?

The only time I can reach my sister is when I mention how are the JWs different from any other tax exempt corporation. I show her news articles of their real estate holdings and the estimated millions they make. That usually silences her for awhile until she goes back for more mind control sessions and gets back into the spirit of being chosen by god for the new system.

It just is an uphill battle with a JW because of the yrs and yrs of expert mind control they receive each day, whether at mtgs, door to door sales pitches, or at home with their meditation (self hypnosis). Very frustrating.

startingover

TD,

The "burning house" argument... excellent!

JeffT

Odrade: figuring that one out was one of the things that pushed me over the edge. I realized that when they are discussing obedience to the org they are "spirit directed" "God's organization" the faithful slave and all that. It all boils down to "believe what we tell you to believe."

But if they are discussing getting caught doing something like predicting the end of the world in 1975, then they're just imperfect men. What really struck me is how quickly dubs can move back and forth between positions without noticing the conflict.

Things to understand about talking to a Jehovah's Witness...

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