To regret religion atheism, agnosticism, and freethought is to regret Western civilization.
We would stil have religion in the eastern civilization just no freedoms on it.
Christianity in a nutshell
by serotonin_wraith 105 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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5go
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Qcmbr
My christianity in a nutshell is
My family and friends
Thats it. All the rest is just words. -
Shawn10538
Any comparison between atheism and religion or faith I reject outright as a total misunderstanding of atheism. Atheists never (usually perhaps then?) make absolute truth claims, unless it is some specific isolated fact that can be demonstrated by experiment. But, grand theories, complete, universal, and internally consistent systems of belief are generally rejected as a whole by scientific types. The scientist and scholar wil break open a belief system and pick apart the system one small fact (or errior) at a time.
A scientist is not concerned with creating grand theories these days, they are more concerned with what is actually provable. It is a waste of time to pursue trying to prove things that are not provable, like the existence of God. Until God provides us with empirical evidence of his existence it is just a pointless endeavor. Grand theories invariably contain contradictions. Even one small error in a belief system renders the entire system as false. As a block, it is completely false even if specific aspects of it are true.
With Christianity and evolution, grand theories, one error, and they both have many, renders the system, as a block, untrue. The difference with evolution is simply that it does not require faith to believe in it. In fact, the ethic of the evolutionist is to stick to the scientific method, and if that method reveals a disconfirmation of what was once thought of as truth, then it is instantly rejected by all WHO OBSERVE and confirm the disconfirmation as it were. There is no need to refer to some book for permission to change your belief, no authority to appeal to. The results of the experiment, if conclusive, is the proof or evidence needed to falsify a belief. Science, evolution, atheists tend to be empiricists not faithful. There is no concept for believing something that you have not personally seen the proof or evidence of. This is why I can not comment on evolution because I don't have much personal knowledge of the issues or the evidence that supports it.
Gotta go, class is starting. More needs to be said on the subject of causation, later.
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lovelylil
Gopher made an excellent point and that is that we Christians should not think only WE have a moral code. That simply is not true. You will find even many athiests who have a better moral code than some Christians and vice versa. We should not make blanket statements about any particular group. We simply should not think as Christians we somehow have a corner on doing what is moral and right.
That takes me back to the scripture in Timothy were he says all of mankind are sinners, ( I quoted it in an earlier post) and he, although being a man of God includes himself in with the sinners, and even goes as far as to say he is the "biggest one of the sinners".
This shows such a humble attitude by Timothy and I think this is a good example for Christians not to feel morally superior to others simply because they do not believe in God. Because we all (mankind) are sinners who fall short of God's glory. So we are in no better position in God's eyes than someone who does not believe. Peace, Lilly
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serotonin_wraith
lovelylil,
It's good to know I'm following the example of Jesus when I speak out against religion. When it comes to evolution, the Bible goes against that, so I don't quite understand why you call yourself Christian when you seem to be more of a deist.
I know not all Christians are bad people. But I do see them as the ones giving the backing and support (even if they don't realise it) to a more sinister side. And things you may not see as bad, like teaching children the Christian god is real, is still bad in my opinion. As bad as indoctrinating children to believe in faries, and telling them what they need to do in life to keep the faries pleased.
darkuncle29,
I do have my views of the world, but atheism does not automatically lead to them. For example, I see evolution as real. But being atheist does not mean one has to believe in that. I could think all animals sprung up out of flowers and I'd still be atheist, just as long as I don't believe in a god. Many atheists can come to believe similar things, but atheism itself is not a belief.
Zico,
Thanks for your reply. I agree that respect can sometimes have a better outcome, but I also see a place for disrespect. Different methods can reach different people in different ways. In forums I'm blunt. In one on one private conversations, I'm more pleasant. It all depends.
I completely agree that evil people do evil things whether or not they believe in a god. I disagree that religions are not the cause of it at times. Muslims and Christians would not be fighting each other if they all had the same religious beliefs. Religion unifies people. Unfortunately, there isn't one world religion. There are many, and they all believe they are correct.
You say you don't think we have to believe in Jesus in order to be saved. Doesn't the Bible say you must? Would you say it is okay for us to pick any religion then, because Christianity isn't the way to salvation?
Different religions bring different levels of danger. Right now, the worst one seems to be Islam- people are being blown up every single day because there are certain Muslims who believe Allah wants them to do this. Others are certainly more peaceful, but the danger from them comes in a more subtle form. Just giving children a false worldview is bad enough.
Christianity has got people to do wonderful things for society, but if these things can be done without religion, I don't see that as a good reason to leave religion alone. If moral acts could only be done with a belief in a god, then I would certainly reconsider my position.
I think your quote can be turned around to ask 'Name [an evil] action taken or [evil] statement made by a person of faith that could not have been performed or made by an atheist'
Crashing planes into buildings and killing thousands of people because Allah wishes it and he will provide 72 virgins for you in paradise.
Holding back stem cell research because it is believed the creator of the universe has put souls in 3 day old human embryos.
That's just two, but I could make a very long list of evil things done because of a belief in a god.
Forscher,
The Christians have done their fair share of spreading Christianity with force over the years. Islam may be worse now, but that doesn't wipe the slate clean for Christianity. The division is there because of the different religions. Even if the war is not over doctrine, lines are drawn where one religion ends and another begins.
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lovelylil
seratonin,
I disagree with one statement you made and that is the bible speaks out against evolution. The Bible does not speak about evolution at all.
You may think that is not true because the Bible says we were created. But, many people of faith believe both in creation and evolution. How? For us, God is the force that set life in motion (created it) but evolution is the means he used once life began to fill the earth with his creations and bring them up to the point that they now exist.
In line with that thought also, there is nothing in the Bible that contradicts the belief that the earth is millions of years old. Some do try to contradict this by their literal and narrow rendering of the Genesis account. But it comes down to how you interpret the scriptures. Not all Christians interpret the records in the same way.
Even those that render the account literally will admit that the Bible does not say how long the earth existed before Adam was created. Not only that, Bible Scholars agree that many generations are not listed in the Old Testament accounts becasue to list all the generations from Adam onward would just be impossible and take up way too much space. The concern of listing the geneological records was to record only what was pertinent for showing the line the Messiah would come through. So the records a few generations prior to Messiah were recorded while some in the more distant past would not be. Also, when the OT records record a relative as a "son", it many times is actually referring to a grandson or great-grandson. Meaning years and years are not accounted for in the Jews Geneological records, and that would make man much older than some Christians believe.
I don't see a contradiction in my beliefs at all. And I see no reason to contradict most scientific information available to us today. The Bible is a book about faith and not a science book. The Bible in general does not address scientific issues such as evolution or the age of the earth and frankly, a person's faith would not be contingent on these issues anyway.
Anyway, thanks for your time. Peace, Lilly
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serotonin_wraith
lovelylil,
The subject was discussed in another thread not too long ago, and there were many things that made no sense to me if evolution is supposed to be compatible with the Christian god. I won't add it to this thread, but it's here if you're interested- http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/15/144444/1.ashx
I wasn't able to get a response to my questions, so you may be able to help me out.
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lovelylil
Thanks seratonin,
I'll check it out. Lilly
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Zico
Serotonin,
I've enjoyed this discussion we've had. :)
I accept that Christians have done a lot of bad things in the name of their God/Religion. Like you, I think that's a terrible thing, and I don't want to make any excuses for evil actions, or evil people. Personally I see most religion as a creation by people who are trying to understand their experiences with God, and it's a shame that some people are intolerant enough to not understand that people might interpret events in different ways, or that they've grown up in different environments, have been given different frameworks for life, and have therefore come to different conclusions. It's a real shame that these different conclusions have led to anger and wars. Whilst I've chosen a Christian path for the time being, I sincerely hope I never become so bigoted as to say 'I'm right and you're wrong' or to look down on other people's beliefs again, as I did when I was a Jehovah's Witness, my posts were merely an attempt to say why not all Christianity is bad or evil, and definitely not on the same level as the KKK, or Nazis, as a whole group.
'Would you say it is okay for us to pick any religion then, because Christianity isn't the way to salvation?'
Yes, as long as you're a moral person, and I have no reason to doubt this in you, I honestly would say it's ok to pick any religion that you think makes sense to you, I mean this. I should explain why. Firstly because, how would Christians account for all the millions of people all over the world before Jesus, as well as the large amount of mankind who have lived since Jesus is said to have existed, who have never heard of Jesus or the Bible. Should they be damned to hell, because it just so happened that they were not born in a Christian area? That would make no sense to me, and would be very unfair, so where do I see an alternative to this? There are quite a few points from the bible, but I'll try to keep my thoughts relatively brief on this subject, firstly, I don't think the bible says those who believe in Christ will be the only ones to rise. It says the dead in Christ will rise first, at 1 Thessalonians 4:16. There are also several scriptures that talk about salvation for all men in the NT. Romans 11:32, John 12:32, and 1 Timothy 4:10, as examples.
I also think Revelation 20 speaks of two different resurrections. Those in Christ, or those who believe in Christ, rising at the beginning of the thousand years, and then the 'non-believers' or the rest of the dead rising after the thousand years. I think this scripture suggests that those who are in the first resurrection have already been judged for their commitment and belief in Jesus, and the rest of the dead rise after the thousand years and are to be judged--not for what they believed, but due to their works and what they did, and that's in line with Revelation 20.
This is why I think, only the truly evil (or intentionally evil) will be destroyed, or put in Hell. I also think that Christ's followers represent the New Jerusalem in Revelation, and the bride of Christ, and with this belief, when I read Revelation 21:1-5, it sounds to me like the people in the first resurrection described in Revelation 20 will later join those who survive the later resurrection, and all will have the same existence in the end.
Other scriptures that seem to agree with this, can be found at Revelation 22:12, and Matthew 16:27, which are both said to be quoting Jesus.
This is just my understanding though, and please don't see it as an attempt to preach to you, as it's not my intention, nor again, would I say my interpretation of scripture is correct above all others. This was simply an answer to your question to show why I am, personally, able to believe that atheists and other non-Christians can be saved without belief in Jesus.
In the meantime, I think we should all, Christian, atheist, or Muslim alike, or whatever other religion, should be striving to make the world a better place, a safer place, and a more tolerant place, for those around us, and for future generations, and any person who does anything that attempts to unite the human race will have my support, no matter what creed or belief they ascribe to, and I really believe I'm far, very far, from alone in wanting this.
Peace, Zico -
Zico
Serotonin,
I'm going to bed now, as I'm not too well, so this is just brief, but I also wanted to comment on this:
"And things you may not see as bad, like teaching children the Christian god is real, is still bad in my opinion. As bad as indoctrinating children to believe in faries, and telling them what they need to do in life to keep the faries pleased."
Personally, I don't think it matters too much what you pass on to your children, as discussed in a recent thread on this board, it's not so much what you pass on to them, as parents will always pass on their beliefs to their children, the important thing is to teach kids how to think, and not what to think, not to indoctrinate them by pushing your beliefs on to them, but raising them to be able to use their own thinking 'tools' properly, and come to their own conclusions. Teaching them how to think critically, and how to analyse things properly, and then accepting your children and the conclusions they've reached using their own minds, is what's important. Do this, and your beliefs will not be detrimental to them in their lives, imo.
Like I said, just a brief thought. ;)