JWs are having a tough time

drew sagan

Yesterday I made a post that discussed some common argumentation methods that JWs use to defend their religion and why they are faulty. You can read that post here

In that post I mentioned how JWs live in a system that encourages, rewards, and praises people for using poor thinking methods. They are instructed to use fallacies in order to build up their system of belief. Because this instruction is coming from the 'faithful slave' the JW never realizes that he is being taught to think poorly but instead is being taught to think well. Thus, the JW is not only instructed to believe absurd doctrines and teachings, he is also instructed in how to use absurd methods to judge truth.

Today I watched a video on YouTube where a guy goes paragraph by paragraph and points out all major flaws in the September 07 KM. YOu can see that video here

Down in the comments I noticed something very important. In response to this video a JW posted this comment:

And what did Jesus say, "By this you will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves." (John 13:35)
Is it loving of brothers to stike at one of the other nation. What if there were two men of the same religion, one from Germany, on from America, fighting a war? Would that be showing love?
It is amazing how someone can attack Jehovah's Witnesses because they premote peace.

It is quite typical. But I think there is something really important to notice about this, and the hundreds (if not thousands) of different examples like it scattered all over the net.

This is the major point to consider:

JWs are extremely under equipped to handle the latest developments in the information age. In conversations between two people bad argumentation can be utilized and the JW is able to escape from hard questions they cannot answer. This is becoming less true. More people are putting the claims of religions, politicians, ect to the test. They want real facts and not pseudo arguments.

That comment made by that girl on youtube shows how JWs are reacting to the world around them. They randomly throw out unrelated hogwash every which way. They have no grasp on what it means to logically debate. Instead they are sparatic, unfocused, and unprepared.

The information age is changing the world we live in, especially the west. People are demanding more and the Watchtower refuses to give. This is making the members inferior to society in general and will only continue to create an even more 'black and white' mentality amongst the membership. It seems as if the Watchtower will continue to become an even more closed system so as not to deal with the changing world around us.

emy the infidel

Is it loving of brothers to stike at one of the other nation. What if there were two men of the same religion, one from Germany, on from America, fighting a war? Would that be showing love?

So not fighting Nazi's, was showing love? Or was showing love saving people from nazi slaughter?

Drew, you make good points. They're foundation is weakening, thus the borders (no internet, or as that bunch of geezers would probably say 'interweb' LOL ) are being enforced.

drew sagan

The important thing to realize emy is that 'rebuttle' by the JW was to the topic of organization control on information.

It's as if the JW has no concept of how to reply to an argument. Instead they just toss out random 'facts' that somehow prove they are correct. In this case they say they are morally better because of a war issue. Whatever they use, it is of no value to the arguments at hand.

Their reasoning abilities are just so under equipped to stand up to what people expect from groups who make such big claims JWs do.

Gregor

Their only refuge from the tough questions is to hide from them. In the door to door calls they usually begin with some insipid question like, "do you think we'll ever see peace in the world?" etc. But if they are unfortunate enough to be talking to someone who can ask them questions like, for example, "What happened to the 1914 teaching?" they will typically beat a retreat. They completely ignore Peters admonition to be ready to give a reason for the beliefs they hold. The only thing that comforts them anymore are natural disasters, wars and diseases. A miserable life indeed.

lovelylil

Drew,

you are so right that the JW's are not equiped to debate. I noticed that even when I was in. Many relied solely on what the WT taught. They could not even defend their faith at the doors. They sidetrack to another topic without answering the question, or they don't understand the q being asked, or they instantly label anyone with a q as being apostate or arguementative. This is how the WT has them trained. This is exactly the purpose of the reasoning book which is to dodge any real questions.

Once when I was out service, the JW I was with rang a bell and as soon as the householder came to the door she said "you people don't believe in Jesus". The JW's response was to try to pull the reasoning book out of her bag to give a response. I immediately told her, put that book away and I answered the householder instead. When we left I asked this sister "why do you need the reasoning book to defend that statement?". You know you believe in Jesus that is supposedly WHY we are in the ministry today.

I was dumbfounded that day but after that I realized more and more that the JW's, especially those in a long time cannot reason things out or debate like you said. The response you posted that the JW gave on youtube is typical. It does not address the issue brought out and tries to deflect onto an entirely different issue.

In a way the WT is hurting themselves by keeping the JW's so brainwashed because the JW's look like dopes especially when they come up against anyone with a real bible knowledge at the doors. I think the WT began to realize that and that is why they have the "sample" field service introductions for the magazines now.

Peace, Lilly

Clam

Good points Drew.

Strangely enough I had some Mormons come to my door the other day, and they had a similar modus operandi. They at first seemed enthusiastic at my (pretend) interest, but glazed over when I engaged in logical debate. It suddenly started to feel as though I was talking to someone in another dimension, where words disappeared in mid air or changed their shape and meaning before they reached the other person's ear. Intelligent debate can be too much like hard work for these people, it's easier to move on until you come across an easier target.

Clam

PS I read your other thread yesterday and it was very good. I would echo the comments made by Willy Loman, one the wise men of the board.

Open mind

All-important JW "First Premise":

I KNOW I HAVE THE TRUTH.

Doggedly hold to that first premise and anything Drew or anyone else has to say will run off the JW's back like water on a duck.

JW ways of coping with guys like Drew:

1. He's too smart for his own good. Don't rely on your own understanding.

2. He's an agent of Satan. (Perhaps unknowingly.)

3. He's let pride overtake him.

4. If what the WT says doesn't make sense, "Wait on Jehovah".

5. Jehovah doesn't use smart people. He uses dummies so the proud, smart people will wish they had listened when the Big A finally comes.

Open Mind

drew sagan

All-important JW "First Premise":

I KNOW I HAVE THE TRUTH.

I would actually revise that statement, or at least add a second clause

I MUST HAVE THE TRUTH

JWs have been taught that acceptance of not knowing what is the 'truth' is to the lowest, most pathetic form of being on this planet. What will become of them if they don't have 'the truth'? That means they will be lost and have to fend for themselves.

They must have the truth. Without it they perceive that they could never survive life on this planet.

AK - Jeff

1. He's too smart for his own good. Don't rely on your own understanding.
2. He's an agent of Satan. (Perhaps unknowingly.)
3. He's let pride overtake him.
4. If what the WT says doesn't make sense, "Wait on Jehovah".
5. Jehovah doesn't use smart people. He uses dummies so the proud, smart people will wish they had listened when the Big A finally comes.

Good point OM. In other words, for Jw's 'Ignorance is bliss'. The insidious infiltration of 'worldy ideas' is resisted with all intensity by them. Anyone could create a 'perfect' robot if the information flow was controlled as tightly as Jw's control it.

This cult is just a degree or two from becoming very dangerous at some point. In reality, though not in scale, how different were Koresh and Jones in the way they controlled? Those disasters were created by information control. Jw's control the information, and if the right madman [or set of madmen] ever takes it a step in the wrong direction, they may be ordering industrial quantities of cyanide and koolaid I fear.

Jeff

drew sagan

This cult is just a degree or two from becoming very dangerous at some point. In reality, though not in scale, how different were Koresh and Jones in the way they controlled? Those disasters were created by information control. Jw's control the information, and if the right madman [or set of madmen] ever takes it a step in the wrong direction, they may be ordering industrial quantities of cyanide and koolaid I fear.

I personally feel that the goals of WT leaders are far away from such scenarios. To compare the WTS with Koresh and Jones is unbalanced IMO. Common principles of mental control are there, but the social dynamics of the situation them very different. Jones and Koresh both where able to do what they did because of geographical factors (i.e. having people contained within a compound at gunpoint).

I believe the goals of the WTS leadership is to create plan for the long term. To find ways in order for their religion to grow at a moderate or even slow pace, but to at least sustain itself. Lock in their assets, keep the membership hooked on their stories, and set sail for the next 100 years. Eventually there will be major changes, but until then they are going to wait them out.

JWs are having a tough time

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