Handling snakes, A religoius practice outlawed

by purplesofa 18 Replies latest jw friends

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  purplesofa

  Maybe we can come up with something questionable to use against wbts.

  Maybe we can use these other cases to show and prove how the refusal of transfusions to save lives needs to be outlawed as well.

  We are not going to be able to take away freedom of religion, note: it does not say freedom from religion,

  but yes a list might be good, of outlawed practices.

  If nothing else to use simple logic and common sense to reason with some JW believers.

  No JW would intrepet the bible to mean that handling snakes was from the word of god....deaconbluez points out that many bible scholars do not even recognized those last few verses in Mark as even part of the bible.

  Maybe I am just comparing apples to oranges....wouldnt be the first time.

  edited to add: Well you edited your post before I posted this.
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  purplesofa

  I doubt the entire JW religion can be done away with, maybe in time, but not soon enough to keep people from dying for lack of blood transfusions.

  The two practices ........handling snakes and polygamy are outlawed, not the religions.
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  SnakesInTheTower

  OM:

  I wonder what "Snakes" thinks about all this?

  I was going to say something silly here...but this is not the thread for it...and I'd probably get edited anyway.......now on to the more serious question purps brought up...

  Purps:

  Snake handling is a religious practice that is outlawed in some US states. Maybe some day blood transfusions will be looked at the same way. Am I crazy to think this?

  No Leslie, I don't think you are crazy to think this. And this is a very good topic to chew on.

  Do we need Big Brother (government) to become a Nanny State to protect us from ourselves? They already do with laws that ought to be common sense (i.e., seat belt laws, traffic laws, DUI laws, smoke detector and other housing/building code requirements).... You would think Darwinism could come into play here, but I digress.

  Now the government is getting even more intrusive in our lives with the new smoking bans. Illinois goes smoke free in January 2008. A smoker can't smoke within 15 feet of a building entrance, window, or ventilation intake. I am not a smoker, so I appreciate going into a public place (esp work) and not have to suck in the smoke (I dont miss those days). But at what point is the government going too far to control what adults can do? Its one thing to control minors from smoking and/or drinking...but adults...thats another matter.

  Even with the current trend toward the government's attempts to protect us from ourselves, adults still have a lot of latitude in their private lives. The government is still hesitant to step across the line of "Separation of Church and State" when it comes to what adults do among themselves. Sure there are laws against snake handling....(just as there are still laws that are absolutely ridiculous but never taken off the books... http://www.poconolibertarians.org/crazyoutdatedlaws.html or google "obsolete laws". )...but the laws on snake handling are not likely to be enforced..too many other crimes to worry about. Especially since it is in connection with religious practices.

  However, when it comes to minors...this might be where someone with a law degree (and not the editorial "we" in Tula's post before she edited it out quote:""maybe WE can come up with something questionable to use against wbts")

  anyway...someone might get a toe hold if minors were involved in snake handling (child endangerment) or refusing to allow a minor a "needed" blood transfusion..because it could also be said to be "child endangerment". Just as the government doesnt allow parents to beat the hell out of their kids for the sake of discipline (though this too often goes unenforced because its undereported), but it is enforced if it is reported. ...at what point does physical discipline cross the line? A slap...how hard? a paddle? how thick and how hard if at all? How about a belt? What may be acceptable to one prosecutor/judge/jury.... might get a parent jail time by another. (That was my JW dad's method of meting out punishment...both ends of the belt...leather quit working, so he reversed ends and used the buckle end...Today he would go to jail for that...but not back in the 70s and 80s.)

  ... NO...the government intercedes...because it is "child endangerment"....even if the religion were to take the "Rod of discipline" literally and say it is the religious right of a parent to beat a child for discipline sake.

  Short answer...Adults will be allowed to do what they want --especially in the name of religion) as long as it does not endanger others or their kids..or make some politician look bad with his constituents. Will religion (specifically JWs) ever be forced to change its ways regarding the blood issue? UNLIKELY...if the religious right has any influence in the matter...they (religious individuals) do not want the nose of the camel (the government) in their tent (religion)...because pretty soon you will have the whole camel (state religion) back in there.

  Sorry for the rambling...just my random thoughts on this... good topic leslie

  Ironically..... Snakes ()
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  purplesofa

  Short answer...Adults will be allowed to do what they want --especially in the name of religion)

  I don't think so, for example gays can't do what they want. Porn is against the law. Smoking pot is against the law, while alcohol is ok. Maybe if Jesus had passed around joints instead of changing the water to wine, pot would be legal.

  I actually think the government will outlaw whatever they think is not bible based, come to think of it.

  Right now, they arent sure if we should really abstain from blood or not. Or maybe we just have to many rights medically. We don't have the right for assisted suicide but we can let ourselves die from refusing a blood transfusion. All we got to do is find a scripture that supports whatever we want, misinterprit it, make sure it is some sort of religion and wallah......home free.

  purps
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  tula

  resolution, HJ22, calling for the creation of a task force to study "cult" activity on college campuses.

  This is an excerpt of testimony that went before the House of Delegates in Maryland concerning resolution HJ22.

  "Cult recruitment activities are often directed towards students on college campuses; and College students are particularly vulnerable to cult recruitment because they are often grappling with becoming independent, overwhelmed with new responsibilities and relationships, adjusting to new environments, and anxious about their futures; and college students who become involved with cults undergo personality changes, suffer academically and financially, are alienated from their families and friends, and are robbed of the very things universities were designed to encourage: freedom of thought, intellectual growth, and personal development and some college administrators have become concerned about cult activities on campus and have taken action to address the situation, but many others have failed to recognize the threat, have refused to deal with the problem, or are searching for policy directions as to how to deal with it; and although the United States Constitution and the Maryland Constitution clearly and properly limit the ability, of any government entity to interfere with the free exercise of religion by any person or group,the State of Maryland has a right and responsibility to examine the behaviors of members of any group who violate State or local law or campus policies regarding deception, harassment, or fraud, or who threaten the mental, emotional, or physical well-being of the citizens of Maryland or students enrolled in the University System of Maryland, Morgan State University, and St. Mary's College." http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/cultsect/mdtaskforce/muse_hearings.htm

  The state of Maryland actually has a Cult Task Force. I wonder why other states have not followed suit? I also wonder how deeply this "task force" has delved into the aspects of fraud, deception, harassment, and mental and emotional health? I would really like to know if they are producing any studies that could uphold these detrimental issues if cults were challenged in court of law.

  This is from your post, Purps:

  The high court ruled that while the right to believe is absolute, Burton said, the right to practice a religion that entails snake handling is conditional upon the state's interest in maintaining a "robust citizenry."

  What the heck is a "robust citizenry" and how is it defined...and is that actually on the books? Could we have some wbts violations here?
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  purplesofa

  Im off to bed, this is the most screwed up thread I have ever started........LOL

  see ya tomorrow.

  purps
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  SnakesInTheTower

  bttt

  its a good topic...

  resurrecting this from yesterday...i want to see some intelligent conversation on this..not my ramblings....lol

  Snakes ()
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  purplesofa

  I saw the JW religion like I had not before with this thread.

  Its hard to make the connection between snake handlers and JWs as snake handlers are just so much more bizarre and none of us would buy into it.

  But those people believe it with all their heart that is what scripture tells them.

  They are in a very isolated area, whereas the JW's are worldwide, but the percentage of snake handlers in America is about what the JW's are percentage wise worldwide.

  The JW's law of no transfusions is going to always hold controversary. While getting the word out will deter some from becoming JW's, some people just may find merit with it. The Medical field is scrambling to accomodate the witnesses,

  I was hoping that and maybe someone can use the information to reason with someone, how scripture can get so twisted, and seem so crazy, much as the snake handling is easy to see.

  And as we do have freedom of religion, the courts do step in and outlaw certain practices, We can only hope with perserverance, letting someone die in this way will be outlawed too, while the medical field continues to do what they can to save lives.

  purps
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  purplesofa

  from
  The End of Faith by Sam Harris
  
  
  
  
  <br>beliefs. After all, no mother who refuses medicine for her child on religious grounds believes that prayer is merely a consoling cultural practice. Rather, she believes that her ultimate salvation demands certain displays of confidence in the power and attentiveness of God, and this is an end toward which she is willing to pledge even the life of her child as collateral. Such apparently unreasonable behaviour is often in the service of reason, since it aims at the empirical authentication of religious doctrine. In fact, even the most extreme expressions of faith are often perfectly rational, given the requisite beliefs. Take the snake-dancing Pentecostals as the most colorful example: in an effort to demonstrate both their faith in the literal word of the Bible (in this case Mark 16:18) and its truth, they "take up serpents" and "drink any deadly thing" and test prophecy (it shall not hurt them) to their heart's content. Some of them die in the process, of course, as did their founder.........